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I have zero problem with whatever usable organs I have remaining going to someone who can make better use of them than my cold, limp corpse. It's not like I hav

by onei 6y ago

I have zero problem with whatever usable organs I have remaining going to someone who can make better use of them than my cold, limp corpse. It's not like I have a need for them anymore and it could save at least one person's life. Seems like a no brainer to me. I do have a problem with being tracked wherever I go and my data being sold on to people that have less than pure uses for it. The two things are not the same.

CSSer 6y ago
> Seems like a no brainer to me. I see what you did there.
mberning 6y ago
That’s great for you. I’m sure you can agree that there are many that do not share your view. Just wait until they harvest organs from somebody and their family throws a fit on religious or other grounds.
- jlebar 6y ago
  Can we agree that people will be harmed on both sides of this? Like, if organ donation is the default, at the very best, it's extra work for people who want not to donate their organs after death. OTOH if organ donation is not the default, dramatically fewer organs are available to people in need, and many of them will die. How are we supposed to weigh these competing harms?
  - tom_ 6y ago
    A tricky moral conundrum indeed - but I suspect we'll muddle through somehow.
- tyre 6y ago
  With regards to consent, this is the same as any other law. You consent by remaining a citizen. Does every (any?) citizen know all of the laws? No, but it's part of the deal if your parents were citizens. If you want to leave the country, you may renounce your citizenship upon becoming an adult.
  - jschwartzi 6y ago
    This pretty snidely disregards how difficult it is to emigrate anywhere else with a similar standard of living. De facto you are stuck in the country of your birth, barring some extraordinary effort on your part over the course of months to years.
  - exolymph 6y ago
    > You consent by remaining a citizen. Uh, no, you can't opt out of being governed altogether. This is why libertarianism is a thing — the state is a categorically different kind of entity due to the monopoly on violence. Tax compliance is ultimately enforced at gunpoint, just like every other law, and that's why it really fucking matters to get the laws right. Haven't we been over this?
  - wedkwew 6y ago
    No, you don't "consent" by remaining a citizen,. At best you endure. > If you want to leave the country, you may renounce your citizenship upon becoming an adult. You are being very generous, and indeed this is one of the last remaining freedoms we have that people in the eastern block did not. Where to go though if all countries compete in becoming the most oppressive one?
- walshemj 6y ago
  Or one of those "religious" families father needs a transplant, in the UK BAME donors are much rarer.
- Goz3rr 6y ago
  You didn't even bother reading until the third paragraph did you? > Your family will still be approached and your faith, beliefs and culture will continue to be respected.
- ken 6y ago
  From their FAQ: "All major religions and belief systems are open to the principles of organ donation" ... "We've worked with faith leaders and communities to build trust, raise awareness, explore questions around organ and tissue donation, and discuss how organ donation can proceed in line with faith or beliefs." From the sound of it, I'm not sure what more they could have done. Are there many people in England who disagree with all major religions on this point?
  - throwawaysea 6y ago
    There aren't authoritative "faith leaders" for decentralized religions like Hinduism or Buddhism. What's happened here is that a likely-Caucasian lawmaker has selectively picked out interpretations of scriptures and quotes from individuals that favor this policy, propped them up as evidence of support from all major religions, and tried to get ahead of criticism with a thinly-disguised PR play.
jtbayly 6y ago
If your body is cold, it’s way too late to use your organs for donation. In fact, your heart has to still be beating and your organs still have to be getting oxygen. Them’s just the facts. Some people might be a bit more concerned, knowing those facts.
- abecode 6y ago
  Actually, in the case of hypothermia, you should be warm before they declare you dead (especially children).
  - jtbayly 6y ago
    Yeah. There’s actually a saying, “You’re not dead until you’re warm and dead.” And the supposed dead (with beating hearts) are actually put into and kept in hypothermia for a variety of reasons. Then to test whether they are “really dead,” part of the procedure is to raise them up to normal temperature before running other tests. It’s complicated.
- onei 6y ago
  I'll leave organ harvesting to those who know more about it than me then :) I'm curious though. If you have to only just be dead to have your organs harvested, how do doctors get there quickly enough for them to still be useful?
  - smabie 6y ago
    People are usually in the hospital when they die. There are lots of doctors in hospitals.
  - ars 6y ago
    Organ donation is usually done from a living, but brain dead, person. There's no specific rush, the person can stay alive for a while. They are killed (controversial word there...) in order to take the donation. On a practical level, most donation comes from head injury patients, motorcycles in particular are known for providing a lot of such patients. Hypoxia (drowning) also works (sometimes) if it's long enough to kill the brain, but not the rest of the body. There aren't as many candidates for donation as you might think. There is a lot of research on how to donate from a someone with cardiac death - doing that would significantly increase the donor pool, while also removing a lot of the objections.
ars 6y ago
No one has an issue with donation from a "cold, limp corpse", the issue people have is that most donation must be taken from a living body, with brain death. And that, I hope you agree, is a much more controversial situation. Issues range from considering it straight out murder (after all the heart it beating, and the person is breathing), to mistakes in accurately detecting brain death, or fear of Dr's removing care in hopes of gaining donation.
dntbnmpls 6y ago
> I have zero problem with whatever usable organs I have remaining going to someone who can make better use of them than my cold, limp corpse. That's your choice and you can donate it if you want. Oh wait, you can't even donate it since you no longer have the option. By default, your organs now belong to the state so your organs aren't even yours to give away. > Seems like a no brainer to me. But not to me and many other people. > I do have a problem with being tracked wherever I go and my data being sold on to people that have less than pure uses for it. But many people have no problem with it. So since they don't have a problem we should all be tracked right? Seems like a no brianer?

by onei 6y ago

CSSer 6y ago

> Seems like a no brainer to me. I see what you did there.

mberning 6y ago

That’s great for you. I’m sure you can agree that there are many that do not share your view. Just wait until they harvest organs from somebody and their family throws a fit on religious or other grounds.

jlebar 6y ago
Can we agree that people will be harmed on both sides of this? Like, if organ donation is the default, at the very best, it's extra work for people who want not to donate their organs after death. OTOH if organ donation is not the default, dramatically fewer organs are available to people in need, and many of them will die. How are we supposed to weigh these competing harms?
- tom_ 6y ago
  A tricky moral conundrum indeed - but I suspect we'll muddle through somehow.
tyre 6y ago
With regards to consent, this is the same as any other law. You consent by remaining a citizen. Does every (any?) citizen know all of the laws? No, but it's part of the deal if your parents were citizens. If you want to leave the country, you may renounce your citizenship upon becoming an adult.
- jschwartzi 6y ago
  This pretty snidely disregards how difficult it is to emigrate anywhere else with a similar standard of living. De facto you are stuck in the country of your birth, barring some extraordinary effort on your part over the course of months to years.
- exolymph 6y ago
  > You consent by remaining a citizen. Uh, no, you can't opt out of being governed altogether. This is why libertarianism is a thing — the state is a categorically different kind of entity due to the monopoly on violence. Tax compliance is ultimately enforced at gunpoint, just like every other law, and that's why it really fucking matters to get the laws right. Haven't we been over this?
- wedkwew 6y ago
  No, you don't "consent" by remaining a citizen,. At best you endure. > If you want to leave the country, you may renounce your citizenship upon becoming an adult. You are being very generous, and indeed this is one of the last remaining freedoms we have that people in the eastern block did not. Where to go though if all countries compete in becoming the most oppressive one?
walshemj 6y ago
Or one of those "religious" families father needs a transplant, in the UK BAME donors are much rarer.
Goz3rr 6y ago
You didn't even bother reading until the third paragraph did you? > Your family will still be approached and your faith, beliefs and culture will continue to be respected.
ken 6y ago
From their FAQ: "All major religions and belief systems are open to the principles of organ donation" ... "We've worked with faith leaders and communities to build trust, raise awareness, explore questions around organ and tissue donation, and discuss how organ donation can proceed in line with faith or beliefs." From the sound of it, I'm not sure what more they could have done. Are there many people in England who disagree with all major religions on this point?
- throwawaysea 6y ago
  There aren't authoritative "faith leaders" for decentralized religions like Hinduism or Buddhism. What's happened here is that a likely-Caucasian lawmaker has selectively picked out interpretations of scriptures and quotes from individuals that favor this policy, propped them up as evidence of support from all major religions, and tried to get ahead of criticism with a thinly-disguised PR play.

jtbayly 6y ago

If your body is cold, it’s way too late to use your organs for donation. In fact, your heart has to still be beating and your organs still have to be getting oxygen. Them’s just the facts. Some people might be a bit more concerned, knowing those facts.

abecode 6y ago
Actually, in the case of hypothermia, you should be warm before they declare you dead (especially children).
- jtbayly 6y ago
  Yeah. There’s actually a saying, “You’re not dead until you’re warm and dead.” And the supposed dead (with beating hearts) are actually put into and kept in hypothermia for a variety of reasons. Then to test whether they are “really dead,” part of the procedure is to raise them up to normal temperature before running other tests. It’s complicated.
onei 6y ago
I'll leave organ harvesting to those who know more about it than me then :) I'm curious though. If you have to only just be dead to have your organs harvested, how do doctors get there quickly enough for them to still be useful?
- smabie 6y ago
  People are usually in the hospital when they die. There are lots of doctors in hospitals.
- ars 6y ago
  Organ donation is usually done from a living, but brain dead, person. There's no specific rush, the person can stay alive for a while. They are killed (controversial word there...) in order to take the donation. On a practical level, most donation comes from head injury patients, motorcycles in particular are known for providing a lot of such patients. Hypoxia (drowning) also works (sometimes) if it's long enough to kill the brain, but not the rest of the body. There aren't as many candidates for donation as you might think. There is a lot of research on how to donate from a someone with cardiac death - doing that would significantly increase the donor pool, while also removing a lot of the objections.

ars 6y ago

No one has an issue with donation from a "cold, limp corpse", the issue people have is that most donation must be taken from a living body, with brain death. And that, I hope you agree, is a much more controversial situation. Issues range from considering it straight out murder (after all the heart it beating, and the person is breathing), to mistakes in accurately detecting brain death, or fear of Dr's removing care in hopes of gaining donation.

dntbnmpls 6y ago

> I have zero problem with whatever usable organs I have remaining going to someone who can make better use of them than my cold, limp corpse. That's your choice and you can donate it if you want. Oh wait, you can't even donate it since you no longer have the option. By default, your organs now belong to the state so your organs aren't even yours to give away. > Seems like a no brainer to me. But not to me and many other people. > I do have a problem with being tracked wherever I go and my data being sold on to people that have less than pure uses for it. But many people have no problem with it. So since they don't have a problem we should all be tracked right? Seems like a no brianer?