7 ms·

It helps to reframe the issue. "Selling" yourself is distasteful for many, because it smacks not only of loudness & brashness, but of straight up lying. Look a

It helps to reframe the issue. "Selling" yourself is distasteful for many, because it smacks not only of loudness & brashness, but of straight up lying. Look at this instead as a problem of knowledge distribution. In the extreme case, you do absolutely brilliant work, but tell nobody - how would people in charge of promotions/funding know you did that work? That's the first step. You need to let people know your work exists, otherwise they really can't reward/recognize it. (Or really, in the extreme, you need to let them know you exist as the very first precondition). The next step is the fact that you are the person who has likely spent by far the most time on the problem. You intuitively understand why this is an incredibly important problem, and why the solution is really, really good. I guarantee you that the people around you don't. How would they? They've spent much less time on it than you have. And so part 2 becomes educating others on the problem and on the solution. So, no, you don't "sell" yourself. You publicize and educate. It's still incredibly hard, but it captures the core of what's actually necessary much better. There's no need to be loud & brash, to paint everything in the brightest possible colors, but there's a need to communicate. If Einstein hadn't written a paper on special relativity, he would (obviously) not have been recognized for it. And if he hand't communicated his insights very clearly and crisply, he wouldn't have been recognized, either - several people before him spelled out some of the insights, but in a much less clear manner. So, don't "sell", just let people clearly know what you do,and why you do it. Looking at it from that angle has helped me tremendously getting over the "selling is gauche" issue.

WalterBright 6y ago
> "Selling" yourself is distasteful for many, because it smacks not only of loudness & brashness, but of straight up lying. Selling is often conflated with trying to trick people into doing something they don't want to do. This is ultimately counterproductive. Selling is helping others get what they want, and in return you get what you want.
- WJW 6y ago
  Some types of selling are like that, but it would be incorrect to say that all types of selling are like that or that some salesmen don't consistently rely on straight up lying. Some bad apples spoil the basket.
  - watwut 6y ago
    Most of sales are like that. The very very small minority is about actually helping people. Then, a lot of people are about manipulating and stretching truth just slightly beyond breaking point. The rest straight lies.
    - WalterBright 6y ago
      Think about the businesses you repeatedly buy from. Are they cheating you?
      - karatestomp 6y ago
        Almost nothing I repeat-buy is sold to me by a salesperson. Is there marketing? Sure. Salesperson? No. In fact having a salesperson involved almost always means it’s something unwanted or unpleasant (door-to-door window salesmen, cars) and I’m inclined to avoid them and shop on my own if it’s an option—I figure if a place is paying salesmen, I’m paying those salesmen if I buy from them, and I’d rather keep that money, and besides I don’t want to spend my time playing Which Pop-Sales Book Did You Read Last with Jim and his “salesman of the month, April 2013” plaque and mass-produced golf art. B2B sales are different but incentives there aren’t the same as for individuals—I might take more sales pitches in private life if someone was paying me to do it, it wasn’t my money on the line, and so on.
        WalterBright 6y ago
        The company is still doing selling to you.
        karatestomp 6y ago
        Yeah, ads, shelf placement. Marketing. No interaction with a salesperson. I take them as a really strong signal to walk away from whatever they’re selling. Ditto any direct communication that appears personalized. Cold calls. Hell even unexpected calls from my bank trying to sell me something or “check in”. No, no, no if you’re talking to me you want something and there’s nothing I want to give you so, bye, and even if I think no maybe I do want that I’ll just hang up faster because you’re (maybe) a pro so I can’t trust any of this—if I didn’t initiate the communication, I don’t need it, so, bye. Actually, I take that back: recruiters sell to me quite a bit. Though they’re trying to convince someone else to give us both money, not me to give them money, so that’s a bit different in that I’m not purchasing anything they’re “selling”.
timClicks 6y ago
The other part of the framing problem is pushing through your internal critic. Impostor syndrome is very real and very difficult to overcome. We're exposed to brilliance from others all around us, but we only see our own repeated failures. But that's a very biased sample. Others also stumble. But those stumbles are invisible. Likewise, your own past success is likely to be drowned out by the noise.
bg24 6y ago
Thank you all, in this thread. It is a difficult skill, but a necessity as well.
tomek_zemla 6y ago
Austin Kleon wrote a great book "Show Your Work!" discussing this approach of sharing, communicating and exchanging creative ideas. He frames the problem in a similar fashion and brings all kinds of nuanced aspects of the issue into the discussion.
chrisweekly 6y ago
THIS. Wish I had more upvotes to give.
steve76 6y ago
> But the word "sell" doesn't necessarily mean what you think it means. > ask why you read some articles and not others. Walk up to someone, hold out your hand like you are about to give them something, and then just go limp. Wait forever if you have to until they take it. I bet that's really how they got Socrates to drink the hemlock. This works everywhere every time. Put a pen in someone's hand, have the contract on a clipboard, and just start moving their hand for a signature. Instead of running an ad like "Click here!", run an ad that says your are scheduled for an appointment tomorrow morning and we're coming over.
amznthrowaway5 6y ago
> It helps to reframe the issue. "Selling" yourself is distasteful for many, because it smacks not only of loudness & brashness, but of straight up lying. But a lot of people who get the promotions and funding are straight up lying. Selling yourself is distasteful because you can't compete with the dishonest, you don't want to play that game.
- MattGaiser 6y ago
  I rarely see lying, but you can get pretty much the same result with selective word choice and hand waving. Going from 500 words to 30 means a loss of resolution. Just make more of the words positive and you can greatly mislead.
  - amznthrowaway5 6y ago
    Greatly misleading or lying by omission isn’t much better than lying directly.
    - TeMPOraL 6y ago
      Exactly. This kind of lying is like return-oriented programming attack. Technically you didn't lie to them, didn't inject them with malicious payload straight up - you just crafted your input to guarantee their mental process generates the malicious payload (the lie) for them.
    - MattGaiser 6y ago
      Yeah, but the harm is done to the uncurious and lazy so I have a lot less sympathy.
- inopinatus 6y ago
  Counterpoint: smart, interested, thoughtful people want to hear your ideas. Judging their judgment in advance, assuming they’ll all be swayed by brashness and unsupportable claims, is really to discount their intelligence. A failure to reach them, to inform your peers, to share and collaborate on ideas due to misplaced humility, to expect someone to entirely bear the responsibility of seeking us out, is almost equally arrogant as the brash salesman. You can compete with the dishonest. Just because many liars are sellers, doesn’t mean all marketing is lying.
_448 6y ago
> educating others on the problem and on the solution. I have had positive results due to this a few times. Though I was not "selling" myself, but product of some company at retail stores. I had never done that before so didn't know anything about "selling". Hence I did what I thought was acceptable to me i.e. educate customers and explain the solution, the only additional thing I did was to understand the customer's requirements first. That helps in calibrating the message for specific audiences.
mattlutze 6y ago
"It helps to reframe the issue. "Selling" yourself is distasteful for many, because it smacks not only of loudness & brashness, but of straight up lying." I think a lot of folks think franchise auto dealers or traveling Hoover reps when they think about "selling". I've always found that sort of "get someone to give me their money for something no matter what" process is better equated with "hustling". I have a few great relationships with real salespeople through my work, and for them it's about lining up their products with the people that truly need them for the price the products need to sell at. I've tried to learn that as a lesson for self-advocacy and network building as well. I actually don't mind a cold call on LinkedIn from someone where our work might really benefit each other.
jscotto 6y ago
This is a really phenomenal lens to look through. This has totally changed my perspective. Thank you
bobbytherobot 6y ago
> Look at this instead as a problem of knowledge distribution I personally found this to be helpful. I find it more comfortable to document and present internally to my companies than to the public at large. I've tried blogging, but it feels pointless. At least with internal presentation, I hear positive feedback from it. Maybe it is just that one person six months later who messages me that I saved them days of work.

WalterBright 6y ago

> "Selling" yourself is distasteful for many, because it smacks not only of loudness & brashness, but of straight up lying. Selling is often conflated with trying to trick people into doing something they don't want to do. This is ultimately counterproductive. Selling is helping others get what they want, and in return you get what you want.

WJW 6y ago
Some types of selling are like that, but it would be incorrect to say that all types of selling are like that or that some salesmen don't consistently rely on straight up lying. Some bad apples spoil the basket.
- watwut 6y ago
  Most of sales are like that. The very very small minority is about actually helping people. Then, a lot of people are about manipulating and stretching truth just slightly beyond breaking point. The rest straight lies.
  - WalterBright 6y ago
    Think about the businesses you repeatedly buy from. Are they cheating you?
    - karatestomp 6y ago
      Almost nothing I repeat-buy is sold to me by a salesperson. Is there marketing? Sure. Salesperson? No. In fact having a salesperson involved almost always means it’s something unwanted or unpleasant (door-to-door window salesmen, cars) and I’m inclined to avoid them and shop on my own if it’s an option—I figure if a place is paying salesmen, I’m paying those salesmen if I buy from them, and I’d rather keep that money, and besides I don’t want to spend my time playing Which Pop-Sales Book Did You Read Last with Jim and his “salesman of the month, April 2013” plaque and mass-produced golf art. B2B sales are different but incentives there aren’t the same as for individuals—I might take more sales pitches in private life if someone was paying me to do it, it wasn’t my money on the line, and so on.
      - WalterBright 6y ago
        The company is still doing selling to you.
        karatestomp 6y ago
        Yeah, ads, shelf placement. Marketing. No interaction with a salesperson. I take them as a really strong signal to walk away from whatever they’re selling. Ditto any direct communication that appears personalized. Cold calls. Hell even unexpected calls from my bank trying to sell me something or “check in”. No, no, no if you’re talking to me you want something and there’s nothing I want to give you so, bye, and even if I think no maybe I do want that I’ll just hang up faster because you’re (maybe) a pro so I can’t trust any of this—if I didn’t initiate the communication, I don’t need it, so, bye. Actually, I take that back: recruiters sell to me quite a bit. Though they’re trying to convince someone else to give us both money, not me to give them money, so that’s a bit different in that I’m not purchasing anything they’re “selling”.

timClicks 6y ago

The other part of the framing problem is pushing through your internal critic. Impostor syndrome is very real and very difficult to overcome. We're exposed to brilliance from others all around us, but we only see our own repeated failures. But that's a very biased sample. Others also stumble. But those stumbles are invisible. Likewise, your own past success is likely to be drowned out by the noise.

bg24 6y ago

Thank you all, in this thread. It is a difficult skill, but a necessity as well.

tomek_zemla 6y ago

Austin Kleon wrote a great book "Show Your Work!" discussing this approach of sharing, communicating and exchanging creative ideas. He frames the problem in a similar fashion and brings all kinds of nuanced aspects of the issue into the discussion.

chrisweekly 6y ago

THIS. Wish I had more upvotes to give.

steve76 6y ago

> But the word "sell" doesn't necessarily mean what you think it means. > ask why you read some articles and not others. Walk up to someone, hold out your hand like you are about to give them something, and then just go limp. Wait forever if you have to until they take it. I bet that's really how they got Socrates to drink the hemlock. This works everywhere every time. Put a pen in someone's hand, have the contract on a clipboard, and just start moving their hand for a signature. Instead of running an ad like "Click here!", run an ad that says your are scheduled for an appointment tomorrow morning and we're coming over.

amznthrowaway5 6y ago

> It helps to reframe the issue. "Selling" yourself is distasteful for many, because it smacks not only of loudness & brashness, but of straight up lying. But a lot of people who get the promotions and funding are straight up lying. Selling yourself is distasteful because you can't compete with the dishonest, you don't want to play that game.

MattGaiser 6y ago
I rarely see lying, but you can get pretty much the same result with selective word choice and hand waving. Going from 500 words to 30 means a loss of resolution. Just make more of the words positive and you can greatly mislead.
- amznthrowaway5 6y ago
  Greatly misleading or lying by omission isn’t much better than lying directly.
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    Exactly. This kind of lying is like return-oriented programming attack. Technically you didn't lie to them, didn't inject them with malicious payload straight up - you just crafted your input to guarantee their mental process generates the malicious payload (the lie) for them.
  - MattGaiser 6y ago
    Yeah, but the harm is done to the uncurious and lazy so I have a lot less sympathy.
inopinatus 6y ago
Counterpoint: smart, interested, thoughtful people want to hear your ideas. Judging their judgment in advance, assuming they’ll all be swayed by brashness and unsupportable claims, is really to discount their intelligence. A failure to reach them, to inform your peers, to share and collaborate on ideas due to misplaced humility, to expect someone to entirely bear the responsibility of seeking us out, is almost equally arrogant as the brash salesman. You can compete with the dishonest. Just because many liars are sellers, doesn’t mean all marketing is lying.

_448 6y ago

> educating others on the problem and on the solution. I have had positive results due to this a few times. Though I was not "selling" myself, but product of some company at retail stores. I had never done that before so didn't know anything about "selling". Hence I did what I thought was acceptable to me i.e. educate customers and explain the solution, the only additional thing I did was to understand the customer's requirements first. That helps in calibrating the message for specific audiences.

mattlutze 6y ago

"It helps to reframe the issue. "Selling" yourself is distasteful for many, because it smacks not only of loudness & brashness, but of straight up lying." I think a lot of folks think franchise auto dealers or traveling Hoover reps when they think about "selling". I've always found that sort of "get someone to give me their money for something no matter what" process is better equated with "hustling". I have a few great relationships with real salespeople through my work, and for them it's about lining up their products with the people that truly need them for the price the products need to sell at. I've tried to learn that as a lesson for self-advocacy and network building as well. I actually don't mind a cold call on LinkedIn from someone where our work might really benefit each other.

jscotto 6y ago

This is a really phenomenal lens to look through. This has totally changed my perspective. Thank you

bobbytherobot 6y ago

> Look at this instead as a problem of knowledge distribution I personally found this to be helpful. I find it more comfortable to document and present internally to my companies than to the public at large. I've tried blogging, but it feels pointless. At least with internal presentation, I hear positive feedback from it. Maybe it is just that one person six months later who messages me that I saved them days of work.