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Hypothetically, if they're able to provide a seamless developer ecosystem -- and a corresponding target platform for those developers to deploy to -- then they

by jka 6y ago

Hypothetically, if they're able to provide a seamless developer ecosystem -- and a corresponding target platform for those developers to deploy to -- then they can guide the direction of the next wave of applications, and they may be able to incentivize and pick winners within it. My fear is that we're in for a tedious decade where we see unironically-announced re-implementations of every existing iOS, Android, and Linux desktop application against this upcoming target platform, with corresponding re-occurrences of previously-seen bugs and security vulnerabilities to match. I'd prefer to learn that we're going to standardize on open web technologies for delivery of software, and that for each case there'll be at least a few mature open source applications or libraries that fit the bill -- and that all that amazing developer capability and productivity is directed towards maintaining and enhancing those, instead of re-inventing them. We'll see.

runawaybottle 6y ago
Right, we definitely would prefer the acceptance of open web technologies vs the shepherding into particular domains. I mentioned in another comment, it’s nowhere near a stretch to see Typescript extended and compiled down to C#, where suddenly we are all on the .NET stack because we all got shepherded via Typescript. It can happen that fast. Then we’ll forget what basic JavaScript is because we’re so used to scaffolding with .NET UI Kits and server apis. How vulnerable is the web community to this? Pretty vulnerable, a lot of us are tied into React or Angular or Vue, or even in more specific cases tied into a UI library like Material. Apologies for the narrow web centric perspective, I know there is a world outside of web :p If I had to takeover with my stack, this is exactly how I’d do it.
- negativegate 6y ago
  I'm not following this train of thought. First of all C# doesn't run in the browser without compiling to WASM which has all sorts of caveats. Second, I don't see how the fact that one could compile TS to C# would suddenly put everyone "on the .NET stack". Does the same risk exist if we can compile JS to C#? Which would work about just as well (i.e. not). And TS is also open source and produces reasonably readable JS, so it's not like there's even any lock-in. Wouldn't it make more sense to be worried about compiling C# or other languages to WASM? Which I'm also not worried about.
  - runawaybottle 6y ago
    Your points are all valid, my concern is mostly that it’s a multi phase plan. We will get closer to something like that as we are shepherded. Did you think Typescript would be the native language in Deno? No, you thought it was something that you might or might not use depending on the situation. Well guess what, that choice is gone for you in Deno’s case. These things compound. It’s one of the reasons you will see people make a simple blog site with create-react-app, they are so inoculated with the hammer that everything is a nail. Did we think we’d be using React like that and forgo style sheets? Just inline all styles? That’s what we all do now. I had no idea we’d become that nuts, but it happened. It’s not particularly bad in all cases, but for the web it is because we’ll stop using standard technologies that are supported across all types of scenarios.
    - negativegate 6y ago
      Did you think Typescript would be the native language in Deno? Yes? I thought that was the whole point. Actually I'm confused about the use of "native" here. It supports running both TS and JS files? And the TS files must be compiled to JS before they can be run anyway. So I'm not seeing any choice that was lost. That’s what we all do now I mean, some people do, but I don't. Not everyone uses React / Vue / etc, and afaik it's only React that is forgoing stylesheets. And it's not like stylesheets are dead or that styling elements through JS is non-standard. (I do use Vue, with stylesheets)

by jka 6y ago

runawaybottle 6y ago

Right, we definitely would prefer the acceptance of open web technologies vs the shepherding into particular domains. I mentioned in another comment, it’s nowhere near a stretch to see Typescript extended and compiled down to C#, where suddenly we are all on the .NET stack because we all got shepherded via Typescript. It can happen that fast. Then we’ll forget what basic JavaScript is because we’re so used to scaffolding with .NET UI Kits and server apis. How vulnerable is the web community to this? Pretty vulnerable, a lot of us are tied into React or Angular or Vue, or even in more specific cases tied into a UI library like Material. Apologies for the narrow web centric perspective, I know there is a world outside of web :p If I had to takeover with my stack, this is exactly how I’d do it.

negativegate 6y ago
I'm not following this train of thought. First of all C# doesn't run in the browser without compiling to WASM which has all sorts of caveats. Second, I don't see how the fact that one could compile TS to C# would suddenly put everyone "on the .NET stack". Does the same risk exist if we can compile JS to C#? Which would work about just as well (i.e. not). And TS is also open source and produces reasonably readable JS, so it's not like there's even any lock-in. Wouldn't it make more sense to be worried about compiling C# or other languages to WASM? Which I'm also not worried about.
- runawaybottle 6y ago
  Your points are all valid, my concern is mostly that it’s a multi phase plan. We will get closer to something like that as we are shepherded. Did you think Typescript would be the native language in Deno? No, you thought it was something that you might or might not use depending on the situation. Well guess what, that choice is gone for you in Deno’s case. These things compound. It’s one of the reasons you will see people make a simple blog site with create-react-app, they are so inoculated with the hammer that everything is a nail. Did we think we’d be using React like that and forgo style sheets? Just inline all styles? That’s what we all do now. I had no idea we’d become that nuts, but it happened. It’s not particularly bad in all cases, but for the web it is because we’ll stop using standard technologies that are supported across all types of scenarios.
  - negativegate 6y ago
    Did you think Typescript would be the native language in Deno? Yes? I thought that was the whole point. Actually I'm confused about the use of "native" here. It supports running both TS and JS files? And the TS files must be compiled to JS before they can be run anyway. So I'm not seeing any choice that was lost. That’s what we all do now I mean, some people do, but I don't. Not everyone uses React / Vue / etc, and afaik it's only React that is forgoing stylesheets. And it's not like stylesheets are dead or that styling elements through JS is non-standard. (I do use Vue, with stylesheets)