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It's been extremely disturbing to see how much the culture of special operations military has changed in the past 20 years. Previously, Navy Seal and Green Ber

It's been extremely disturbing to see how much the culture of special operations military has changed in the past 20 years. Previously, Navy Seal and Green Berets operated in silent, keeping the sausage making of military special operations quiet and secret, just doing their duty. Now, it seems like every Navy SEAL now publically writes a book, sponsors a coffee line, or slaps their name, likeness and story all over everything from T-Shirts to gun accessories to clothing lines. It's made a complete mockery of what has always been a silent service and honorable job, and it's spawned a HUGE environment of tacticool people who want to act and look the part. And then a lot of these special operations folks have decided to cash in on the privatization component of special operations - we've seen the Venezuelan attempted coup, and this. Crazy times...

cosmodisk 6y ago
Because they are fed up with making pennies. It's the case in pretty much every country,only in the US they tend to have a little bit more so called opportunities because of mass obsession about anything military related. In my own country the guys from special forces take unpaid holidays and go abroad for some lucrative private contracts because the government pays peanuts.
- arkades 6y ago
  I can't make any claim to expertise, as I've only known a handful of these folks in the US, but from what I've heard, they don't make pennies. They just make a lot less than what private industry is willing to pay for mercenaries. There is, in fairness, a difference.
  - blaser-waffle 6y ago
    As true with code as with pulling triggers. Work for the Feds and pull 150k around DC and a security clearance. Some of the seniors at big contractors pull big $$$. Meanwhile, you can get a total comp of 400k or more working for a FAANGM out west while smoking weed everyday and banging foreigners. My understanding is that the SOF and SEALs get paid well, even as enlisted folks (who get paid less than officers), but why settle for an adequate paycheck when you can have a kick-ass one? Doubly so, since the kinds of people who become Spec Ops are hyper-motivated and deliver results.
    - wh-uws 6y ago
      Its frustrating when people trot out FAANGM as if thats a standard take just anyone can get. Its great if you can get through the interview process at some place decent (I did for the record). But that's like saying "I'll just go play for the NBA". Competition is stiff
      - cosmodisk 6y ago
        Well,yes,it is tough,but then again,if someone's pulling $400K in total comp writing code, that's not something that just lands from the sky. Outside of tech industry you'd need to be a VP, or even a CEO to clear that kind of money,so yes, it's expected to be tough.
        wh-uws 6y ago
        Totally agree with you but in the context of the comment I replied to the guy made it seem as if it's like why take this government pittance when I can just wave a magic wand and get a job and get a job at <insert your favorite top tier tech company> I was merely pointing out that it is muuuuuch more difficult than that comment made it seem.
      - arkades 6y ago
        I mean... FAANGM for programmers is probably a fair comparison to being a SpecOps soldier, right? It's also a cream-of-the-crop type scenario.
    - rsynnott 6y ago
      > and banging foreigners Wait, what?
      - bb611 6y ago
        Pretty sure GP is talking about restricted/banned activities for government workers and contractors with clearances: - You may not smoke marijuana - it violates federal law. - You are required to regularly report on close contact with foreign nationals, though I'm not sure a casual hookup meets that criteria. But if you're in an ongoing sexual relationship with a foreign national the Feds will want to know.
- kthxbye123 6y ago
  Between their salaries, hazard pay, pensions, government hiring and contracting preferences, free lifetime healthcare, free tuition, free graduate tuition, free job retraining and zero-interest mortgages, U.S. soldiers are amply compensated, and there are plenty of legitimate opportunities available for guys from elite units like the Green Berets. None of the guys writing tell-alls or turning to a life of international crime and /or mercenary work are doing it to put food on the table, they do it because they're thrill- or fame- or money-obsessed psychos.
  - munk-a 6y ago
    Is this the same free lifetime healthcare that other vets get that involves frequent denials and years long waiting lists to get treatment? The US is pretty terrible to their armed forces - but they're quite nice to the R&D side of the military, because that's the side that's in competition with private industry.
    - jki275 6y ago
      There's no free lifetime healthcare. It's less expensive than private health care, but it's not free, and it doesn't cover everything, and it's standard government run bullshit. And it goes away as soon as you become medicare eligible and you have to go on medicare.
  - stonogo 6y ago
    "Hazard pay" is $150 per month at most. The "free lifetime healthcare" gets eroded every congressional session (for a while there they took away dental coverage), and the VA health care system has a well-deserved reputation for being a nightmare factory. There is no such thing as a "zero-interest mortgage." The only benefit to a VA loan is the zero-down-payment. The only way to retire on a full-salary pension is to serve for forty years. There are benefits to serving, but troops are not well compensated compared to the work performed. I'd also be interested in what you think the job market looks like for someone who has spent twenty years in a combat arms MOS. Most of the officers wind up well-prepared for management roles, but I don't know any enlisted retirees who didn't have a hard time transitioning.
- eloisius 6y ago
  This is also how Los Zetas formed. A bunch of elite soldiers figured out they could make a lot more money as enforcers for drug cartels.
  - Mirioron 6y ago
    If you think about it, it's a bit odd that there are so few mercenaries in this day and age. When you look back on history then from what I can tell, mercenaries were much more common.
    - demosthenes14 6y ago
      What makes you think there are so few? Mercenaries are basically representing both America and Russia in Syria right now.
    - loosetypes 6y ago
      You might find this entry on Swiss mercenaries interesting. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_mercenaries https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_mercenaries It was new information to me but supports your idea.
    - eloisius 6y ago
      I met a guy at NewSpace several years ago and we were talking about the role of the US military in space exploration. I was expressing my wariness of a militarized space force, the possibility of us ending up under a military junta, etc, but he was less worried. He kept making the point that mercenaries were the norm in the past and that the US military actually has an incredible record for never seizing control. He chalked it up to the fact that our military traditions and honor are deeply intertwined with civilian rule, and didn't think our soldiers would easily abandon that.
      - jeffreyrogers 6y ago
        The US military has only been around for 250 years and look at how much the country has changed in that time. The idea of the welfare state would be totally incomprehensible to the founders[0]. I think the idea of the military as separate from the rest of the state is contingent on that state operating in the interests of the people. Or at least, not against the interests of the people. And history shows that no society has been able to do this forever. [0]: I'm not saying we shouldn't have a welfare state, it's clearly necessary in the modern world, but the America of today is nothing like the America that was intended, for better or for worse.
- tomjakubowski 6y ago
  Why don't they just learn to code?
djdjrjfbfjd 6y ago
I worked with seals on a few projects, back when Blackwater was a thing and also more recently, and I wonder what kind of job offers these guys are getting after they leave the military. Or, frighteningly, while they’re still in it. The number and variety of corporate and private mercenary forces is much higher than most people would suspect. The size of Special Operations Command in the active duty US military is also much, much, much larger than most Americans realize.
- zerkten 6y ago
  I casually follow this topic and have observed this growth. How do people in SOC feel about this growth? Is part of the issue that the specialists are sidelined in the growth of the bureaucracy? To an outsider it seems like a startup that's been swallowed up by an enterprise company. For the programmers at the startup they had a lot of autonomy, but now most don't have this. Other opportunities seem exciting and there is a feeling that many others are living off the success that you felt you created. I'm sure that's a bad analogy, but it's hard to know from the outside unless you have military links in the US.
- CapricornNoble 6y ago
  >>I wonder what kind of job offers these guys are getting after they leave the military. Or, frighteningly, while they’re still in it. They're getting gigs as paid assassins, moonlighting as military officers in other nations' Direct Action missions so they can pull in $25k/month. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/aramroston/mercenaries-assassination-us-yemen-uae-spear-golan-dahlan https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/aramroston/mercenaries-...
- unhomedcoder 6y ago
  SOCOM is around 100,000 soldiers. only the top 20 countries have militaries with more than 200,000 soldiers. if SOCOM was its own military, it would be bigger than 90% of the militaries in the world.
- kilroy123 6y ago
  Yes, and this was heavily expanded by the Obama administration. Which has always been one of my criticisms about him. When I tell people this, I get blank stares.
pmoriarty 6y ago
" It's made a complete mockery of what has always been a silent service and honorable job" Killing people and enabling the mass murder machine that is the military is not and has never been honorable.
- 101404 6y ago
  Doesn't it feel nice to angrily generalize on the internet?
- md2020 6y ago
  Ah yes, victory over Nazi Germany during WW2 through incredible sacrifice by millions, nothing honorable about that.
  - andyjohnson0 6y ago
    That doesn't work forever. Name an honourable war conducted by the US military since 1946.
    - gnarbarian 6y ago
      Korea, the gulf war, arguably Afghanistan, the cold war. What is honorable is certainly subjective though.
    - samdamsamm 6y ago
      We should also acknowledge the desperate lengths to which the US government has gone to soil any honor accrued in any previous wars. On the recent anniversary of the fall of Auschwitz, The White House twitter account claimed it as a victory of ‘The United States and UK’. Supposedly the already-dishonest ‘Allied Troops’ is not cutting it anymore. (The Red Army liberated Auschwitz)
      - brewdad 6y ago
        Not to defend Trump, I can't think of more than a handful of times I've ever agreed with him, but can you imagine the uproar had he praised Russia for their efforts at Auschwitz? Probably would have been best to praise the result without mentioning any specific parties involved in carrying it out. Then again, Trump isn't really known for thinking in nuance.
empath75 6y ago
There's always been that element of military service, and I think the experience of WWII and the cold war changed the stakes temporarily. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filibuster_(military) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filibuster_(military) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket It has definitely gotten worse since the Iraq War for a variety of reasons, and I think a big part of it is the lack of a draft has created a growing disconnect between "military people" and the population at large. There's no sense of shared sacrifice. People think they pay their taxes and that's as far as they need to sacrifice, and soldiers look around at their friends dying to secure oil fields for exxon-mobil while nobody at home is paying attention and can't help but get cynical.
mc32 6y ago
It’s not much different from former butlers and other staff to the royals writing books and so on. It sells and they have product. That said all of that is different from becoming a mercenary or pseudo mercenary.
ggamecrazy 6y ago
I believe inside the special operations community, Navy Seals, especially Team 6, gets a lot of flak for the amount of insider content that comes out [1]. Perhaps some of the lessons may apply to the tech community as well. I found this quote resonating well even for myself and tech, specifically for the adoration of tech leaders: "It’s easy to fall in love with oneself, but this is not about us...It cannot be about us". [2] I know a certain unit that loved to remind people "You will give more than you receive". I found that quote quite helpful in helping myself decide if a certain company / team is worth my efforts. I do believe that under most circumstances we will give more than we received (monetarily or otherwise). Is that cause worth it? 1: https://www.duffelblog.com/2014/05/us-navy-seal-training-writing-course/ https://www.duffelblog.com/2014/05/us-navy-seal-training-wri... (satirical) 2: https://web.archive.org/web/20200404171023/https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/28/world/middleeast/al-baghdadi-delta-force.html https://web.archive.org/web/20200404171023/https://www.nytim...
- hpoe 6y ago
  I've was told by a friend that Seal Team 6 is kind of just a facade that the govt. puts on any spec ops operation that is successful that they need to publicize. Not that Seal Team 6 isn't full of spec ops guys, but rather that for confidentiality reasons, even if it isn't Seal Team 6 the govt. will say Seal Team 6 for obfuscation. "All warfare is based on deception" - Sun Tzu
  - goatinaboat 6y ago
    Well, when team 6 was founded, there were only teams 1 and 2. The number itself was a ruse.
- save_ferris 6y ago
  > I believe inside the special operations community, Navy Seals, especially Team 6, gets a lot of flak for the amount of insider content that comes out This may be true, but it also reminds me of the long and lucrative relationship between the US military and Hollywood[0]. It's pretty well established at this point that the military is willing to pay for opportunities to look good in movies, like they did in the Transformers series. There's an incredible amount of money behind the scenes influencing military presence in our media, and a lot of people don't realize it. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military-entertainment_complex https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military-entertainment_complex
hpoe 6y ago
So I know some folks in the business I think part of it is because we've glamorized special forces but there isn't always a pressing need for them. From what my friends in the business say is that it is 98% of your life is spent in miserable training, only the top elite of the spec ops forces ever see anything real. Probably in part because these forces were forged during the midst of the Cold War to combat the Red Menace across the entire world, now we're dealing with local warlords, much different threat. Maybe it is the result of glamorizing the Navy Seals, and Delta Force and what not in movies, everyone wanted to be one because it was portrayed so cool; however just like internet communities once you become popular what made you popular died, an eternal September for Spec ops if you will. Also the groups that are doing the sausage making are probably ones that you aren't hearing about. Such as the CIA SOG, Airborne Pararescue, or other groups you just don't hear a lot about.
- pnw_hazor 6y ago
  During the fighting seasons in Afghanistan. US Army Rangers were doing raids every night. (Not counting in-country downtime associated with changing operation areas.) Most raids were uneventful but contact with enemy happened often enough. But they rarely had access to 160th SOAR helicopters because the 160th was usually busy supporting SEALs and Delta. To your point about training, deployment was considered an easier time than being state-side because state-side time mostly consisted of high tempo training to prepare for other missions as well as get ready for the next rotation.
2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago
The mission of the Navy SEAL squad is to locate, close with, and destroy book deals. Edit: I'm also tired of being lectured on integrity, honor, sacrifice, and duty only to see them cower in the face of questions about Eddie Gallagher.
- entee 6y ago
  Should be noted that a number of people in Gallagher’s unit came forward and raised issues. It’s one of the reasons he was prosecuted in the first place.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago
    Yes. But the very vocal and public SEAL "influencers" I'll call them, say nothing. Those are the ones who lecture via Twitter, Youtube, books, and podcasts about honor, integrity, courage, doing the right thing, etc.
lesdeuxmagots 6y ago
One factor is that they're just following the trends of broader society - influencer mentality has impacted every consumer facing industry, and makes it easier for more people to be involved in building up and monetizing a public persona. About the privatization of specops - that would seem to follow the general trend of mercenary forces. As private military contracting has picked up on the last few decades, it's natural that special operations gets roped into that.
subsubzero 6y ago
From what another commentator said, they are not making much, 54,000 a year [1] I consider them almost on a level with pro athletes given that to do the job at a high level you are done by your early 40's, in addition the numbers able to reach this field are very small[2] (about 33k based on 2014 estimates) based on overall troop count - 1.3M [3] that means that the top 2.3% of soldiers qualify for special forces, a truly elite group. I am also not keen on the flood of 'special forces merchandise' but alot of people are in a bind and need to take care of their families and when your career ends by 40 and you have mortgage payments, food bills.. [1] - https://www.businessinsider.com/navy-seal-pay-compared-with-teachers-and-wall-street-2011-5 https://www.businessinsider.com/navy-seal-pay-compared-with-... [2] - https://fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RS21048.pdf https://fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RS21048.pdf [3] - https://beta.trimread.com/articles/16942 https://beta.trimread.com/articles/16942
- ciarannolan 6y ago
  I'm totally ignorant on the details of this, but wouldn't someone who served in the US military for 20+ years have a great financial retirement and other benefits for life?
  - 0xCMP 6y ago
    IIUC it's the same as anyone else being in the military for 20 years. That's not really enough IMHO for the level of training they have.
    - kthxbye123 6y ago
      Part of the allure of the job is that it's supposed to be about abstract values like honor, duty, loyalty, patriotism etc. and not about compensation. It can't be otherwise, because then you have to accept that the job is basically just about killing people in exchange for money.
      - meheleventyone 6y ago
        It can be about all that stuff and you can pay people well. Nothing about the latter implies you have to suddenly change your values.
poof131 6y ago
The privatization of the military is one of the most corrupt and corrosive things our country has done in a while. I flew F-18s for the Navy and did a ground tour in Iraq with Special Forces. Look at the pay grades in 2020.[1] E3-E6 are making about $25-40k in salary. With some hazard pay and Basic Allowance for Housing (BAH) and Subsistence (BAS), depending on where you live (if not in the barracks) maybe you are making $50k. A decade ago, the contractors who took none of the risks of going on ops and were just training Iraqis were clearing $1k a day. I also saw contract pilots clearing $20k+ a month. This pay differential is morale destroying and trains people to think in market terms regarding skills that shouldn’t have a market outside of government. Now we have private armies going on offensive operations (Venezuela). But this is what the owners of the contracting firms always wanted. Privatizing a military is dumb but I guess so is outsourcing your medical supply chain, an overabundance of short-term bottomlinism the past few decades. 1. https://militarybenefits.info/2020-military-pay-charts/ https://militarybenefits.info/2020-military-pay-charts/
- johnchristopher 6y ago
  The privatization of the US military is a consequence of the monetization of war that went into full swing around the 2000's. Or so I read from the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shock_Doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shock_Doctrine
  - klenwell 6y ago
    I guess we moved from Eisenhower's concern about the influence of the Military-Industrial complex to concerns about the privatization of the Military-Industrial complex. Have we entered a new phase: Gig-Economization of the Military-Industrial complex? This passage from a 2011 NPR article on the 50th anniversary of Eisenhower's warning caught my attention: Eisenhower was worried about the costs of an arms race with the Soviet Union, and the resources it would take from other areas -- such as building hospitals and schools. https://www.npr.org/2011/01/17/132942244/ikes-warning-of-military-expansion-50-years-later https://www.npr.org/2011/01/17/132942244/ikes-warning-of-mil... Seems especially prescient at the moment.
game_the0ry 6y ago
Think about all the privatized "special operations" missions that the public isn't even aware of...
danans 6y ago
> Crazy times... Are they? Mercenaries for hire have been a thing for centuries. And ultimately, mercenaries are selling a service, and need to market to their potential customers, like wealthy CEOs of huge corporations. Today, possibly owing in part to the growing inequality in the world (though not specifically in Ghosn's case), wealthy individuals are looking for ways to protect themselves from a restive populace. One way in which they find out about the availability of private defense/security purposes is by that industry marketing themselves in some way. Mercenaries have been marketing themselves for offensive or defensive purposes to people with a lot to lose like this for centuries, whether the medieval Hashishin (from whom we get the term assassin), or the Swiss Mercenaries (whose modern continuation is the Papal Swiss Guard of the Vatican). Sadly, this re-privatization of mercenary services appears to be more of a reversion to a historical norm that was only brought under state control in the late 19th through mid-late 20th century.
mcnichol 6y ago
How is this any different than FAANG type workers spinning out, creating their startup, writing a book.... Really myopic view. You may not consider it cool but this is their livelihood which they've put a lot more into than many I know. I have personally had an opportunity to serve alongside some of the most incredible leaders. I wish they had money set for the rest of their lives and not have a need to cash in on their hard work and end up taking shots like yours. If there was some disingenuous military folks cashing in and exploiting the system, sure I agree, those people suck. Doesn't seem very decent for you to paint an entire community with a single brush.
thefounder 6y ago
Now it's really more about the money than anything else. You can't talk about Iraq and millitary without talking about oil and private contractors. Like it or not it became a kind of mercenary business. I can't blame the service people (Navy SEAL) though. I'm pretty sure they get the short straws from the deal anyway.
raverbashing 6y ago
Well, the 'motivational/marketing' side makes more money than the actual job. In the same way that Harley Davidson makes more money with merch than with motorbikes and George Foreman made more money sponsoring a kitchen grill than with his boxing career.
bogomipz 6y ago
But wasn't this cultural shift borne out of the Department of Defense itself under Donald Rumsfeld and the 20K private contractors they hired to conduct operations in Iraq? There was a PBS Frontline documentary about this called "Private Warrior" from around that time that's worth a watch: https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/private-warriors/ https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/private-warriors/
deleted 6y ago
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hbosch 6y ago
> Now, it seems like every Navy SEAL now publically writes a book, sponsors a coffee line, or slaps their name, likeness and story all over everything from T-Shirts to gun accessories to clothing lines. It's made a complete mockery of what has always been a silent service and honorable job, and it's spawned a HUGE environment of tacticool people who want to act and look the part. You can thank the propaganda machine being run through Hollywood, especially over the last few years (Zero Dark Thirty, American Sniper, Hurt Locker, etc.), for a lot of that.
jariel 6y ago
It's definitely not every seal. Moreover, it's not really them, it's the media landscape. Imagine if after retiring from a life of duty in which you were paid peanuts, someone offered you $2M for some stories. Which really were benign anyhow? How can we ask people to 'not tell anyone about their adventures'. It's a tiny bit of a paradox. At least they are not Kardashians.

cosmodisk 6y ago

Because they are fed up with making pennies. It's the case in pretty much every country,only in the US they tend to have a little bit more so called opportunities because of mass obsession about anything military related. In my own country the guys from special forces take unpaid holidays and go abroad for some lucrative private contracts because the government pays peanuts.

arkades 6y ago
I can't make any claim to expertise, as I've only known a handful of these folks in the US, but from what I've heard, they don't make pennies. They just make a lot less than what private industry is willing to pay for mercenaries. There is, in fairness, a difference.
- blaser-waffle 6y ago
  As true with code as with pulling triggers. Work for the Feds and pull 150k around DC and a security clearance. Some of the seniors at big contractors pull big $$$. Meanwhile, you can get a total comp of 400k or more working for a FAANGM out west while smoking weed everyday and banging foreigners. My understanding is that the SOF and SEALs get paid well, even as enlisted folks (who get paid less than officers), but why settle for an adequate paycheck when you can have a kick-ass one? Doubly so, since the kinds of people who become Spec Ops are hyper-motivated and deliver results.
  - wh-uws 6y ago
    Its frustrating when people trot out FAANGM as if thats a standard take just anyone can get. Its great if you can get through the interview process at some place decent (I did for the record). But that's like saying "I'll just go play for the NBA". Competition is stiff
    - cosmodisk 6y ago
      Well,yes,it is tough,but then again,if someone's pulling $400K in total comp writing code, that's not something that just lands from the sky. Outside of tech industry you'd need to be a VP, or even a CEO to clear that kind of money,so yes, it's expected to be tough.
      - wh-uws 6y ago
        Totally agree with you but in the context of the comment I replied to the guy made it seem as if it's like why take this government pittance when I can just wave a magic wand and get a job and get a job at <insert your favorite top tier tech company> I was merely pointing out that it is muuuuuch more difficult than that comment made it seem.
    - arkades 6y ago
      I mean... FAANGM for programmers is probably a fair comparison to being a SpecOps soldier, right? It's also a cream-of-the-crop type scenario.
  - rsynnott 6y ago
    > and banging foreigners Wait, what?
    - bb611 6y ago
      Pretty sure GP is talking about restricted/banned activities for government workers and contractors with clearances: - You may not smoke marijuana - it violates federal law. - You are required to regularly report on close contact with foreign nationals, though I'm not sure a casual hookup meets that criteria. But if you're in an ongoing sexual relationship with a foreign national the Feds will want to know.
kthxbye123 6y ago
Between their salaries, hazard pay, pensions, government hiring and contracting preferences, free lifetime healthcare, free tuition, free graduate tuition, free job retraining and zero-interest mortgages, U.S. soldiers are amply compensated, and there are plenty of legitimate opportunities available for guys from elite units like the Green Berets. None of the guys writing tell-alls or turning to a life of international crime and /or mercenary work are doing it to put food on the table, they do it because they're thrill- or fame- or money-obsessed psychos.
- munk-a 6y ago
  Is this the same free lifetime healthcare that other vets get that involves frequent denials and years long waiting lists to get treatment? The US is pretty terrible to their armed forces - but they're quite nice to the R&D side of the military, because that's the side that's in competition with private industry.
  - jki275 6y ago
    There's no free lifetime healthcare. It's less expensive than private health care, but it's not free, and it doesn't cover everything, and it's standard government run bullshit. And it goes away as soon as you become medicare eligible and you have to go on medicare.
- stonogo 6y ago
  "Hazard pay" is $150 per month at most. The "free lifetime healthcare" gets eroded every congressional session (for a while there they took away dental coverage), and the VA health care system has a well-deserved reputation for being a nightmare factory. There is no such thing as a "zero-interest mortgage." The only benefit to a VA loan is the zero-down-payment. The only way to retire on a full-salary pension is to serve for forty years. There are benefits to serving, but troops are not well compensated compared to the work performed. I'd also be interested in what you think the job market looks like for someone who has spent twenty years in a combat arms MOS. Most of the officers wind up well-prepared for management roles, but I don't know any enlisted retirees who didn't have a hard time transitioning.
eloisius 6y ago
This is also how Los Zetas formed. A bunch of elite soldiers figured out they could make a lot more money as enforcers for drug cartels.
- Mirioron 6y ago
  If you think about it, it's a bit odd that there are so few mercenaries in this day and age. When you look back on history then from what I can tell, mercenaries were much more common.
  - demosthenes14 6y ago
    What makes you think there are so few? Mercenaries are basically representing both America and Russia in Syria right now.
  - loosetypes 6y ago
    You might find this entry on Swiss mercenaries interesting. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_mercenaries https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_mercenaries It was new information to me but supports your idea.
  - eloisius 6y ago
    I met a guy at NewSpace several years ago and we were talking about the role of the US military in space exploration. I was expressing my wariness of a militarized space force, the possibility of us ending up under a military junta, etc, but he was less worried. He kept making the point that mercenaries were the norm in the past and that the US military actually has an incredible record for never seizing control. He chalked it up to the fact that our military traditions and honor are deeply intertwined with civilian rule, and didn't think our soldiers would easily abandon that.
    - jeffreyrogers 6y ago
      The US military has only been around for 250 years and look at how much the country has changed in that time. The idea of the welfare state would be totally incomprehensible to the founders[0]. I think the idea of the military as separate from the rest of the state is contingent on that state operating in the interests of the people. Or at least, not against the interests of the people. And history shows that no society has been able to do this forever. [0]: I'm not saying we shouldn't have a welfare state, it's clearly necessary in the modern world, but the America of today is nothing like the America that was intended, for better or for worse.
tomjakubowski 6y ago
Why don't they just learn to code?

djdjrjfbfjd 6y ago

I worked with seals on a few projects, back when Blackwater was a thing and also more recently, and I wonder what kind of job offers these guys are getting after they leave the military. Or, frighteningly, while they’re still in it. The number and variety of corporate and private mercenary forces is much higher than most people would suspect. The size of Special Operations Command in the active duty US military is also much, much, much larger than most Americans realize.

zerkten 6y ago
I casually follow this topic and have observed this growth. How do people in SOC feel about this growth? Is part of the issue that the specialists are sidelined in the growth of the bureaucracy? To an outsider it seems like a startup that's been swallowed up by an enterprise company. For the programmers at the startup they had a lot of autonomy, but now most don't have this. Other opportunities seem exciting and there is a feeling that many others are living off the success that you felt you created. I'm sure that's a bad analogy, but it's hard to know from the outside unless you have military links in the US.
CapricornNoble 6y ago
>>I wonder what kind of job offers these guys are getting after they leave the military. Or, frighteningly, while they’re still in it. They're getting gigs as paid assassins, moonlighting as military officers in other nations' Direct Action missions so they can pull in $25k/month. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/aramroston/mercenaries-assassination-us-yemen-uae-spear-golan-dahlan https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/aramroston/mercenaries-...
unhomedcoder 6y ago
SOCOM is around 100,000 soldiers. only the top 20 countries have militaries with more than 200,000 soldiers. if SOCOM was its own military, it would be bigger than 90% of the militaries in the world.
kilroy123 6y ago
Yes, and this was heavily expanded by the Obama administration. Which has always been one of my criticisms about him. When I tell people this, I get blank stares.

pmoriarty 6y ago

" It's made a complete mockery of what has always been a silent service and honorable job" Killing people and enabling the mass murder machine that is the military is not and has never been honorable.

101404 6y ago
Doesn't it feel nice to angrily generalize on the internet?
md2020 6y ago
Ah yes, victory over Nazi Germany during WW2 through incredible sacrifice by millions, nothing honorable about that.
- andyjohnson0 6y ago
  That doesn't work forever. Name an honourable war conducted by the US military since 1946.
  - gnarbarian 6y ago
    Korea, the gulf war, arguably Afghanistan, the cold war. What is honorable is certainly subjective though.
  - samdamsamm 6y ago
    We should also acknowledge the desperate lengths to which the US government has gone to soil any honor accrued in any previous wars. On the recent anniversary of the fall of Auschwitz, The White House twitter account claimed it as a victory of ‘The United States and UK’. Supposedly the already-dishonest ‘Allied Troops’ is not cutting it anymore. (The Red Army liberated Auschwitz)
    - brewdad 6y ago
      Not to defend Trump, I can't think of more than a handful of times I've ever agreed with him, but can you imagine the uproar had he praised Russia for their efforts at Auschwitz? Probably would have been best to praise the result without mentioning any specific parties involved in carrying it out. Then again, Trump isn't really known for thinking in nuance.

empath75 6y ago

There's always been that element of military service, and I think the experience of WWII and the cold war changed the stakes temporarily. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filibuster_(military) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filibuster_(military) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket It has definitely gotten worse since the Iraq War for a variety of reasons, and I think a big part of it is the lack of a draft has created a growing disconnect between "military people" and the population at large. There's no sense of shared sacrifice. People think they pay their taxes and that's as far as they need to sacrifice, and soldiers look around at their friends dying to secure oil fields for exxon-mobil while nobody at home is paying attention and can't help but get cynical.

mc32 6y ago

It’s not much different from former butlers and other staff to the royals writing books and so on. It sells and they have product. That said all of that is different from becoming a mercenary or pseudo mercenary.

ggamecrazy 6y ago

I believe inside the special operations community, Navy Seals, especially Team 6, gets a lot of flak for the amount of insider content that comes out [1]. Perhaps some of the lessons may apply to the tech community as well. I found this quote resonating well even for myself and tech, specifically for the adoration of tech leaders: "It’s easy to fall in love with oneself, but this is not about us...It cannot be about us". [2] I know a certain unit that loved to remind people "You will give more than you receive". I found that quote quite helpful in helping myself decide if a certain company / team is worth my efforts. I do believe that under most circumstances we will give more than we received (monetarily or otherwise). Is that cause worth it? 1: https://www.duffelblog.com/2014/05/us-navy-seal-training-writing-course/ https://www.duffelblog.com/2014/05/us-navy-seal-training-wri... (satirical) 2: https://web.archive.org/web/20200404171023/https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/28/world/middleeast/al-baghdadi-delta-force.html https://web.archive.org/web/20200404171023/https://www.nytim...

hpoe 6y ago
I've was told by a friend that Seal Team 6 is kind of just a facade that the govt. puts on any spec ops operation that is successful that they need to publicize. Not that Seal Team 6 isn't full of spec ops guys, but rather that for confidentiality reasons, even if it isn't Seal Team 6 the govt. will say Seal Team 6 for obfuscation. "All warfare is based on deception" - Sun Tzu
- goatinaboat 6y ago
  Well, when team 6 was founded, there were only teams 1 and 2. The number itself was a ruse.
save_ferris 6y ago
> I believe inside the special operations community, Navy Seals, especially Team 6, gets a lot of flak for the amount of insider content that comes out This may be true, but it also reminds me of the long and lucrative relationship between the US military and Hollywood[0]. It's pretty well established at this point that the military is willing to pay for opportunities to look good in movies, like they did in the Transformers series. There's an incredible amount of money behind the scenes influencing military presence in our media, and a lot of people don't realize it. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military-entertainment_complex https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military-entertainment_complex

hpoe 6y ago

So I know some folks in the business I think part of it is because we've glamorized special forces but there isn't always a pressing need for them. From what my friends in the business say is that it is 98% of your life is spent in miserable training, only the top elite of the spec ops forces ever see anything real. Probably in part because these forces were forged during the midst of the Cold War to combat the Red Menace across the entire world, now we're dealing with local warlords, much different threat. Maybe it is the result of glamorizing the Navy Seals, and Delta Force and what not in movies, everyone wanted to be one because it was portrayed so cool; however just like internet communities once you become popular what made you popular died, an eternal September for Spec ops if you will. Also the groups that are doing the sausage making are probably ones that you aren't hearing about. Such as the CIA SOG, Airborne Pararescue, or other groups you just don't hear a lot about.

pnw_hazor 6y ago
During the fighting seasons in Afghanistan. US Army Rangers were doing raids every night. (Not counting in-country downtime associated with changing operation areas.) Most raids were uneventful but contact with enemy happened often enough. But they rarely had access to 160th SOAR helicopters because the 160th was usually busy supporting SEALs and Delta. To your point about training, deployment was considered an easier time than being state-side because state-side time mostly consisted of high tempo training to prepare for other missions as well as get ready for the next rotation.

2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago

The mission of the Navy SEAL squad is to locate, close with, and destroy book deals. Edit: I'm also tired of being lectured on integrity, honor, sacrifice, and duty only to see them cower in the face of questions about Eddie Gallagher.

entee 6y ago
Should be noted that a number of people in Gallagher’s unit came forward and raised issues. It’s one of the reasons he was prosecuted in the first place.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago
  Yes. But the very vocal and public SEAL "influencers" I'll call them, say nothing. Those are the ones who lecture via Twitter, Youtube, books, and podcasts about honor, integrity, courage, doing the right thing, etc.

lesdeuxmagots 6y ago

One factor is that they're just following the trends of broader society - influencer mentality has impacted every consumer facing industry, and makes it easier for more people to be involved in building up and monetizing a public persona. About the privatization of specops - that would seem to follow the general trend of mercenary forces. As private military contracting has picked up on the last few decades, it's natural that special operations gets roped into that.

subsubzero 6y ago

From what another commentator said, they are not making much, 54,000 a year [1] I consider them almost on a level with pro athletes given that to do the job at a high level you are done by your early 40's, in addition the numbers able to reach this field are very small[2] (about 33k based on 2014 estimates) based on overall troop count - 1.3M [3] that means that the top 2.3% of soldiers qualify for special forces, a truly elite group. I am also not keen on the flood of 'special forces merchandise' but alot of people are in a bind and need to take care of their families and when your career ends by 40 and you have mortgage payments, food bills.. [1] - https://www.businessinsider.com/navy-seal-pay-compared-with-teachers-and-wall-street-2011-5 https://www.businessinsider.com/navy-seal-pay-compared-with-... [2] - https://fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RS21048.pdf https://fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RS21048.pdf [3] - https://beta.trimread.com/articles/16942 https://beta.trimread.com/articles/16942

ciarannolan 6y ago
I'm totally ignorant on the details of this, but wouldn't someone who served in the US military for 20+ years have a great financial retirement and other benefits for life?
- 0xCMP 6y ago
  IIUC it's the same as anyone else being in the military for 20 years. That's not really enough IMHO for the level of training they have.
  - kthxbye123 6y ago
    Part of the allure of the job is that it's supposed to be about abstract values like honor, duty, loyalty, patriotism etc. and not about compensation. It can't be otherwise, because then you have to accept that the job is basically just about killing people in exchange for money.
    - meheleventyone 6y ago
      It can be about all that stuff and you can pay people well. Nothing about the latter implies you have to suddenly change your values.

poof131 6y ago

The privatization of the military is one of the most corrupt and corrosive things our country has done in a while. I flew F-18s for the Navy and did a ground tour in Iraq with Special Forces. Look at the pay grades in 2020.[1] E3-E6 are making about $25-40k in salary. With some hazard pay and Basic Allowance for Housing (BAH) and Subsistence (BAS), depending on where you live (if not in the barracks) maybe you are making $50k. A decade ago, the contractors who took none of the risks of going on ops and were just training Iraqis were clearing $1k a day. I also saw contract pilots clearing $20k+ a month. This pay differential is morale destroying and trains people to think in market terms regarding skills that shouldn’t have a market outside of government. Now we have private armies going on offensive operations (Venezuela). But this is what the owners of the contracting firms always wanted. Privatizing a military is dumb but I guess so is outsourcing your medical supply chain, an overabundance of short-term bottomlinism the past few decades. 1. https://militarybenefits.info/2020-military-pay-charts/ https://militarybenefits.info/2020-military-pay-charts/

johnchristopher 6y ago
The privatization of the US military is a consequence of the monetization of war that went into full swing around the 2000's. Or so I read from the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shock_Doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shock_Doctrine
- klenwell 6y ago
  I guess we moved from Eisenhower's concern about the influence of the Military-Industrial complex to concerns about the privatization of the Military-Industrial complex. Have we entered a new phase: Gig-Economization of the Military-Industrial complex? This passage from a 2011 NPR article on the 50th anniversary of Eisenhower's warning caught my attention: Eisenhower was worried about the costs of an arms race with the Soviet Union, and the resources it would take from other areas -- such as building hospitals and schools. https://www.npr.org/2011/01/17/132942244/ikes-warning-of-military-expansion-50-years-later https://www.npr.org/2011/01/17/132942244/ikes-warning-of-mil... Seems especially prescient at the moment.

game_the0ry 6y ago

Think about all the privatized "special operations" missions that the public isn't even aware of...

danans 6y ago

> Crazy times... Are they? Mercenaries for hire have been a thing for centuries. And ultimately, mercenaries are selling a service, and need to market to their potential customers, like wealthy CEOs of huge corporations. Today, possibly owing in part to the growing inequality in the world (though not specifically in Ghosn's case), wealthy individuals are looking for ways to protect themselves from a restive populace. One way in which they find out about the availability of private defense/security purposes is by that industry marketing themselves in some way. Mercenaries have been marketing themselves for offensive or defensive purposes to people with a lot to lose like this for centuries, whether the medieval Hashishin (from whom we get the term assassin), or the Swiss Mercenaries (whose modern continuation is the Papal Swiss Guard of the Vatican). Sadly, this re-privatization of mercenary services appears to be more of a reversion to a historical norm that was only brought under state control in the late 19th through mid-late 20th century.

mcnichol 6y ago

How is this any different than FAANG type workers spinning out, creating their startup, writing a book.... Really myopic view. You may not consider it cool but this is their livelihood which they've put a lot more into than many I know. I have personally had an opportunity to serve alongside some of the most incredible leaders. I wish they had money set for the rest of their lives and not have a need to cash in on their hard work and end up taking shots like yours. If there was some disingenuous military folks cashing in and exploiting the system, sure I agree, those people suck. Doesn't seem very decent for you to paint an entire community with a single brush.

thefounder 6y ago

Now it's really more about the money than anything else. You can't talk about Iraq and millitary without talking about oil and private contractors. Like it or not it became a kind of mercenary business. I can't blame the service people (Navy SEAL) though. I'm pretty sure they get the short straws from the deal anyway.

raverbashing 6y ago

Well, the 'motivational/marketing' side makes more money than the actual job. In the same way that Harley Davidson makes more money with merch than with motorbikes and George Foreman made more money sponsoring a kitchen grill than with his boxing career.

bogomipz 6y ago

But wasn't this cultural shift borne out of the Department of Defense itself under Donald Rumsfeld and the 20K private contractors they hired to conduct operations in Iraq? There was a PBS Frontline documentary about this called "Private Warrior" from around that time that's worth a watch: https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/private-warriors/ https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/private-warriors/

deleted 6y ago

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hbosch 6y ago

> Now, it seems like every Navy SEAL now publically writes a book, sponsors a coffee line, or slaps their name, likeness and story all over everything from T-Shirts to gun accessories to clothing lines. It's made a complete mockery of what has always been a silent service and honorable job, and it's spawned a HUGE environment of tacticool people who want to act and look the part. You can thank the propaganda machine being run through Hollywood, especially over the last few years (Zero Dark Thirty, American Sniper, Hurt Locker, etc.), for a lot of that.

jariel 6y ago

It's definitely not every seal. Moreover, it's not really them, it's the media landscape. Imagine if after retiring from a life of duty in which you were paid peanuts, someone offered you $2M for some stories. Which really were benign anyhow? How can we ask people to 'not tell anyone about their adventures'. It's a tiny bit of a paradox. At least they are not Kardashians.