6 ms·

It is interesting to me that people who definitely want to have children think somehow they are being less selfish than those of us who don't. We're both doing

It is interesting to me that people who definitely want to have children think somehow they are being less selfish than those of us who don't. We're both doing what we want to do to bring and sustain joy in our lives. Are these individuals the people that actually didn't want to have children but did so out of selfless commitment to their spouses or desire of their parents to become grandparents? I don't typically get that sense. Relatedly: I feel very, very pessimistic about how our society is changing, and even worse about the environment. This is a large part of my reluctance to have children. Is that selfish too?

mnm1 6y ago
They are/were either in happy marriages with children and think everyone should experience that in the same way Timothy Leary thought everyone should drop acid and are both wrong, or they are/were in unhappy marriages or had horrible children and feel everyone should experience that in the same way fraternities think everyone should be hazed and are both wrong. Either way, they assume that you can either find the right spouse or give up your entire life just to have some kids that may or may not care about you on your deathbed. Nowhere in this discussion is the desire of the people who haven't yet had children considered. All arguments are in a bad faith authoritarian controlling nature: "I know better than you" type. Pretty much every argument on here that advocates for children falls into those two camps. Some people even write "when you have kids," assuming it's inevitable because they are simply too closed minded and blind to the fact that not everyone wants kids. Finally, whatever reason you have for wanting or not wanting kids is always going to be selfish first. It might also contain altruistic elements. There's nothing wrong with being selfish and doing what is best for you. Or are we all supposed to be altruistic and donate our entire salary every month to charity? Absurd.
GoodJokes 6y ago
Yea, seeing as I am asked to accommodate parents all the time, I think the selfishness is on the other side. Multiply this by a million with pets.
RestlessMind 6y ago
I believe people who do not want to have children and yet plan to depend on the social safety or their own savings are either being selfish or being ignorant about how these programs work. It is not sufficient to just pay your taxes, because they go to fund the current beneficiaries. When it is your turn to use these programs, you will need a new set of people to pay taxes to fund your retirement / maintain stock market valuation of your portfolio by working in those companies / produce food or entertainment or service which you are going to consume. These people need to be born and raised, either in your society or in other societies. And no, robots are not coming anytime soon to take care of your finances and consumption in your retirement.
- HelloMcFly 6y ago
  I will acknowledge that this is the best community-minded argument for having children that I've seen, but it also has the distinction of being the least convincing on influencing personal decisions. You may as well be selling me on a Ponzi scheme. Your argument presents raising children as if you're farming a resource to ensure our half-asses social safety net doesn't collapse. This point is not lost on me, but it does lose some power when I'm working for actual systemic change that doesn't create such a stratified, ponzi-scheme style social structure. I'm not going to be a human resources bot to keep the SS fund liquid (which is a far larger problem than just me), but I'm also not just sitting around watching the world crumble without taking action. I'm sure we can yadda yadda yadda our way into the inevitable debate about the parallels, perils and pitfalls of a society built on unending economic growth, but let's not. A broken system creates an obligation to fix the system, not keep it on life support with my sex organs.
  - RestlessMind 6y ago
    Thanks for your insight that this is not going to change anyone's minds. And frankly, "being selfish" has lost a lot of its stigma, so planning to enjoy one's retirement while relying on the labor of the future generations raised by someone else can be a totally acceptable plan in many parts of our society. Question to you - if you think current system is broken, what would you replace it with if you had all the power?

mnm1 6y ago

They are/were either in happy marriages with children and think everyone should experience that in the same way Timothy Leary thought everyone should drop acid and are both wrong, or they are/were in unhappy marriages or had horrible children and feel everyone should experience that in the same way fraternities think everyone should be hazed and are both wrong. Either way, they assume that you can either find the right spouse or give up your entire life just to have some kids that may or may not care about you on your deathbed. Nowhere in this discussion is the desire of the people who haven't yet had children considered. All arguments are in a bad faith authoritarian controlling nature: "I know better than you" type. Pretty much every argument on here that advocates for children falls into those two camps. Some people even write "when you have kids," assuming it's inevitable because they are simply too closed minded and blind to the fact that not everyone wants kids. Finally, whatever reason you have for wanting or not wanting kids is always going to be selfish first. It might also contain altruistic elements. There's nothing wrong with being selfish and doing what is best for you. Or are we all supposed to be altruistic and donate our entire salary every month to charity? Absurd.

GoodJokes 6y ago

Yea, seeing as I am asked to accommodate parents all the time, I think the selfishness is on the other side. Multiply this by a million with pets.

RestlessMind 6y ago

I believe people who do not want to have children and yet plan to depend on the social safety or their own savings are either being selfish or being ignorant about how these programs work. It is not sufficient to just pay your taxes, because they go to fund the current beneficiaries. When it is your turn to use these programs, you will need a new set of people to pay taxes to fund your retirement / maintain stock market valuation of your portfolio by working in those companies / produce food or entertainment or service which you are going to consume. These people need to be born and raised, either in your society or in other societies. And no, robots are not coming anytime soon to take care of your finances and consumption in your retirement.

HelloMcFly 6y ago
I will acknowledge that this is the best community-minded argument for having children that I've seen, but it also has the distinction of being the least convincing on influencing personal decisions. You may as well be selling me on a Ponzi scheme. Your argument presents raising children as if you're farming a resource to ensure our half-asses social safety net doesn't collapse. This point is not lost on me, but it does lose some power when I'm working for actual systemic change that doesn't create such a stratified, ponzi-scheme style social structure. I'm not going to be a human resources bot to keep the SS fund liquid (which is a far larger problem than just me), but I'm also not just sitting around watching the world crumble without taking action. I'm sure we can yadda yadda yadda our way into the inevitable debate about the parallels, perils and pitfalls of a society built on unending economic growth, but let's not. A broken system creates an obligation to fix the system, not keep it on life support with my sex organs.
- RestlessMind 6y ago
  Thanks for your insight that this is not going to change anyone's minds. And frankly, "being selfish" has lost a lot of its stigma, so planning to enjoy one's retirement while relying on the labor of the future generations raised by someone else can be a totally acceptable plan in many parts of our society. Question to you - if you think current system is broken, what would you replace it with if you had all the power?