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Both - even in this thread someone is getting downvoted into oblivion for calling me selfish: > It's terrifying to me that selfishness and self-centeredness ha

Both - even in this thread someone is getting downvoted into oblivion for calling me selfish: > It's terrifying to me that selfishness and self-centeredness has apparently taken over that generation of young people. It's a very common sentiment and it's usually older family/coworkers. EDIT: now there's even more and weird "you're gonna die alone" comments in there too (which are common as a counter argument for waiting)... just look at this thread and you'll see exactly what I was trying to describe.

josefresco 6y ago
A couple separate issues but first and foremost I'm sorry you are being treated this way. 1. HNers (myself included) are argumentative and treat HN like a debate platform. I wouldn't assign any weight to comments here about issues such as this (or anything for that matter) 2. The people in your real world sound pretty terrible. I can't think of one person who would DARE tell me I'm being selfish for choosing to have kids or not. Maybe it's because I'm a man, or self-confident, or something else but I couldn't even imagine someone saying this to me without it turning into a very unpleasant argument, not to mention me cutting off contact. Did I just luck out with family, peers and coworkers? Maybe. How do you respond?
- folkhack 6y ago
  I've cut off contact with a huge chunk of my family and my GF's family is way more understanding as they've been living in California for the last 20 years and get that people just have different ways of living for different reasons. They've made marriage comments but they just want us to get hitched since we've been together for so long which I see as way more benign than pushing us for kids. I find it's predominantly a conservative view that comes from religious underpinnings. I also think it comes down to a lot of folks who took the traditional path because "that's what you're suppose to do" who are threatened by alternative life circumstances. I respond with, "we're taking our time to figure things out financially and emotionally to be healthy people" - or something along those lines. It's a 100% genuine answer and usually knocks them off their stance enough that they consider how things may be for someone different than them. I could get into more details but a big reason I deal with this is because I'm the very socially liberal black-sheep that moved to California in my conservative Iowan family. It's just a way for them to dig at me passive-aggressively without outright challenging my views. I've also experienced this in workplaces/offices with uncomfortably strong Christian vibes.
  - wonderwonder 6y ago
    I have no knowledge of your specific situation but one thing to remember if in your case its your parents pushing you to have kids is that they may be doing it out of both the desire to have grand kids and see the continuation of their line as well as them knowing that they love you and want you to experience that same love. With that said, don't let anyone pressure you into making what is probably the largest single decision in anyone's life.
HelloMcFly 6y ago
It is interesting to me that people who definitely want to have children think somehow they are being less selfish than those of us who don't. We're both doing what we want to do to bring and sustain joy in our lives. Are these individuals the people that actually didn't want to have children but did so out of selfless commitment to their spouses or desire of their parents to become grandparents? I don't typically get that sense. Relatedly: I feel very, very pessimistic about how our society is changing, and even worse about the environment. This is a large part of my reluctance to have children. Is that selfish too?
- mnm1 6y ago
  They are/were either in happy marriages with children and think everyone should experience that in the same way Timothy Leary thought everyone should drop acid and are both wrong, or they are/were in unhappy marriages or had horrible children and feel everyone should experience that in the same way fraternities think everyone should be hazed and are both wrong. Either way, they assume that you can either find the right spouse or give up your entire life just to have some kids that may or may not care about you on your deathbed. Nowhere in this discussion is the desire of the people who haven't yet had children considered. All arguments are in a bad faith authoritarian controlling nature: "I know better than you" type. Pretty much every argument on here that advocates for children falls into those two camps. Some people even write "when you have kids," assuming it's inevitable because they are simply too closed minded and blind to the fact that not everyone wants kids. Finally, whatever reason you have for wanting or not wanting kids is always going to be selfish first. It might also contain altruistic elements. There's nothing wrong with being selfish and doing what is best for you. Or are we all supposed to be altruistic and donate our entire salary every month to charity? Absurd.
- GoodJokes 6y ago
  Yea, seeing as I am asked to accommodate parents all the time, I think the selfishness is on the other side. Multiply this by a million with pets.
- RestlessMind 6y ago
  I believe people who do not want to have children and yet plan to depend on the social safety or their own savings are either being selfish or being ignorant about how these programs work. It is not sufficient to just pay your taxes, because they go to fund the current beneficiaries. When it is your turn to use these programs, you will need a new set of people to pay taxes to fund your retirement / maintain stock market valuation of your portfolio by working in those companies / produce food or entertainment or service which you are going to consume. These people need to be born and raised, either in your society or in other societies. And no, robots are not coming anytime soon to take care of your finances and consumption in your retirement.

josefresco 6y ago

A couple separate issues but first and foremost I'm sorry you are being treated this way. 1. HNers (myself included) are argumentative and treat HN like a debate platform. I wouldn't assign any weight to comments here about issues such as this (or anything for that matter) 2. The people in your real world sound pretty terrible. I can't think of one person who would DARE tell me I'm being selfish for choosing to have kids or not. Maybe it's because I'm a man, or self-confident, or something else but I couldn't even imagine someone saying this to me without it turning into a very unpleasant argument, not to mention me cutting off contact. Did I just luck out with family, peers and coworkers? Maybe. How do you respond?

folkhack 6y ago
I've cut off contact with a huge chunk of my family and my GF's family is way more understanding as they've been living in California for the last 20 years and get that people just have different ways of living for different reasons. They've made marriage comments but they just want us to get hitched since we've been together for so long which I see as way more benign than pushing us for kids. I find it's predominantly a conservative view that comes from religious underpinnings. I also think it comes down to a lot of folks who took the traditional path because "that's what you're suppose to do" who are threatened by alternative life circumstances. I respond with, "we're taking our time to figure things out financially and emotionally to be healthy people" - or something along those lines. It's a 100% genuine answer and usually knocks them off their stance enough that they consider how things may be for someone different than them. I could get into more details but a big reason I deal with this is because I'm the very socially liberal black-sheep that moved to California in my conservative Iowan family. It's just a way for them to dig at me passive-aggressively without outright challenging my views. I've also experienced this in workplaces/offices with uncomfortably strong Christian vibes.
- wonderwonder 6y ago
  I have no knowledge of your specific situation but one thing to remember if in your case its your parents pushing you to have kids is that they may be doing it out of both the desire to have grand kids and see the continuation of their line as well as them knowing that they love you and want you to experience that same love. With that said, don't let anyone pressure you into making what is probably the largest single decision in anyone's life.

HelloMcFly 6y ago

It is interesting to me that people who definitely want to have children think somehow they are being less selfish than those of us who don't. We're both doing what we want to do to bring and sustain joy in our lives. Are these individuals the people that actually didn't want to have children but did so out of selfless commitment to their spouses or desire of their parents to become grandparents? I don't typically get that sense. Relatedly: I feel very, very pessimistic about how our society is changing, and even worse about the environment. This is a large part of my reluctance to have children. Is that selfish too?

mnm1 6y ago
They are/were either in happy marriages with children and think everyone should experience that in the same way Timothy Leary thought everyone should drop acid and are both wrong, or they are/were in unhappy marriages or had horrible children and feel everyone should experience that in the same way fraternities think everyone should be hazed and are both wrong. Either way, they assume that you can either find the right spouse or give up your entire life just to have some kids that may or may not care about you on your deathbed. Nowhere in this discussion is the desire of the people who haven't yet had children considered. All arguments are in a bad faith authoritarian controlling nature: "I know better than you" type. Pretty much every argument on here that advocates for children falls into those two camps. Some people even write "when you have kids," assuming it's inevitable because they are simply too closed minded and blind to the fact that not everyone wants kids. Finally, whatever reason you have for wanting or not wanting kids is always going to be selfish first. It might also contain altruistic elements. There's nothing wrong with being selfish and doing what is best for you. Or are we all supposed to be altruistic and donate our entire salary every month to charity? Absurd.
GoodJokes 6y ago
Yea, seeing as I am asked to accommodate parents all the time, I think the selfishness is on the other side. Multiply this by a million with pets.
RestlessMind 6y ago
I believe people who do not want to have children and yet plan to depend on the social safety or their own savings are either being selfish or being ignorant about how these programs work. It is not sufficient to just pay your taxes, because they go to fund the current beneficiaries. When it is your turn to use these programs, you will need a new set of people to pay taxes to fund your retirement / maintain stock market valuation of your portfolio by working in those companies / produce food or entertainment or service which you are going to consume. These people need to be born and raised, either in your society or in other societies. And no, robots are not coming anytime soon to take care of your finances and consumption in your retirement.