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> Many folks in my social circles are just less willing to accept the real responsibility of raising a child. You can also accept the responsibility of dying c

by js8 6y ago

> Many folks in my social circles are just less willing to accept the real responsibility of raising a child. You can also accept the responsibility of dying childless. It might be lonely and problematic in other ways. It might even make your life shorter. I wish people would understand that kids are not only responsibility, but also joy, and help. So the grass is not really greener on the either side.

CogitoCogito 6y ago
> You can also accept the responsibility of dying childless. It might be lonely and problematic in other ways. It might even make your life shorter. Might make your life longer and happier too. Obviously it depends on personal circumstances. > I wish people would understand that kids are not only responsibility, but also joy, and help. So the grass is not really greener on the either side. I think most people _do_ understand that. I would hope that you understand that depending on the circumstances, that joy and help may _not_ outweigh the responsibility and hardships.
- js8 6y ago
  > I would hope that you understand that depending on the circumstances, that joy and help may _not_ outweigh the responsibility and hardships. It's not really my problem, as I am an anatalist. :-) But I do find the prospect of dying childless somewhat scary. (I have only one brother who is not going to have children either.) If it wasn't for the global warming (and general ecological destruction), I would very much want to have kids.
  - toasterlovin 6y ago
    I’m just gonna be blunt here: opting out of having children for the sake of the environment is incredibly shortsighted. Fixing the environment is a collective action problem. Emphasis on collective: it will take many people working on it directly, advocating for it, voting for it, etc. Opting to not have children just handicaps your cause by removing future people who would likely end up on your team. Don’t do it! Make some babies. Raise them to be good people. The world will be a slightly better place for it. And your life will be made immeasurably better by the purpose and meaning that children bestow upon it.
    - cmendel 6y ago
      This is simply false. The greatest effect you as an individual can, realistically, have on climate change is to choose not to have children. Through the magic of exponential growth it outweighs basically every other choice e.g. veganism, biking rather than driving, buying local etc.
      - haihaibye 6y ago
        Most western countries increase immigration (turning them into developed country level polluters) to make up for falling birthrates.
        cmendel 6y ago
        Most western countries have substantially higher emissions per capita[1] than most of the developing world. Hence, the concern about the effects of Africa/India/others standards of living increasing since it is likely to correspond with an increase in emissions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di...
        haihaibye 6y ago
        Yes that was inside my parenthesis.
      - toasterlovin 6y ago
        Exponential growth works in the other direction as well: if you have no children, you are freeing up resources to provide for other people’s children. And other people will continue having children (see your own argument about exponential growth).
        cmendel 6y ago
        I'm having a hard time here, what exactly are you arguing? Resources are finite and I can't control other people. Should I increase the strain on an already overburdened system because other peoples future descendants might use those resources otherwise? I presume that I am misreading your point because that seems... ill founded.
  - haihaibye 6y ago
    Everything is heritable, including political beliefs. You've made the next generation care slightly less on average about global warming. Maybe your kids would have been more intelligent than the global average of ~90 IQ and helped work on or pay for solutions.
folkhack 6y ago
> You can also accept the responsibility of dying childless. It might be lonely and problematic in other ways. Who am I to impose my degrading health/inevitable death onto someone else? I say this having dealt with both of my parent's deaths already. I come from a long family history of mental illness, addiction, abuse, and just some general heinous stuff. Passing my daily struggle along to someone to avoid dying childless seems so selfish to me... to the point that I'd feel pretentious even considering that as a reason TO have children. What I'm trying to say is it's just not as simple as that for many people. I've also accepted that I will likely die alone and just don't care - I've volunteered at nursing homes and EOL is miserable for everyone. Doing anything so people give a f about me down the line just seems incredibly selfish.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  This is why I push for assisted suicidal wherever possible. I would not like to be a burden on anyone else in old age, and if I get to that point I would want to put myself out of my misery. Easier said than done of course.

by js8 6y ago

CogitoCogito 6y ago

> You can also accept the responsibility of dying childless. It might be lonely and problematic in other ways. It might even make your life shorter. Might make your life longer and happier too. Obviously it depends on personal circumstances. > I wish people would understand that kids are not only responsibility, but also joy, and help. So the grass is not really greener on the either side. I think most people _do_ understand that. I would hope that you understand that depending on the circumstances, that joy and help may _not_ outweigh the responsibility and hardships.

js8 6y ago
> I would hope that you understand that depending on the circumstances, that joy and help may _not_ outweigh the responsibility and hardships. It's not really my problem, as I am an anatalist. :-) But I do find the prospect of dying childless somewhat scary. (I have only one brother who is not going to have children either.) If it wasn't for the global warming (and general ecological destruction), I would very much want to have kids.
- toasterlovin 6y ago
  I’m just gonna be blunt here: opting out of having children for the sake of the environment is incredibly shortsighted. Fixing the environment is a collective action problem. Emphasis on collective: it will take many people working on it directly, advocating for it, voting for it, etc. Opting to not have children just handicaps your cause by removing future people who would likely end up on your team. Don’t do it! Make some babies. Raise them to be good people. The world will be a slightly better place for it. And your life will be made immeasurably better by the purpose and meaning that children bestow upon it.
  - cmendel 6y ago
    This is simply false. The greatest effect you as an individual can, realistically, have on climate change is to choose not to have children. Through the magic of exponential growth it outweighs basically every other choice e.g. veganism, biking rather than driving, buying local etc.
    - haihaibye 6y ago
      Most western countries increase immigration (turning them into developed country level polluters) to make up for falling birthrates.
      - cmendel 6y ago
        Most western countries have substantially higher emissions per capita[1] than most of the developing world. Hence, the concern about the effects of Africa/India/others standards of living increasing since it is likely to correspond with an increase in emissions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di...
        haihaibye 6y ago
        Yes that was inside my parenthesis.
    - toasterlovin 6y ago
      Exponential growth works in the other direction as well: if you have no children, you are freeing up resources to provide for other people’s children. And other people will continue having children (see your own argument about exponential growth).
      - cmendel 6y ago
        I'm having a hard time here, what exactly are you arguing? Resources are finite and I can't control other people. Should I increase the strain on an already overburdened system because other peoples future descendants might use those resources otherwise? I presume that I am misreading your point because that seems... ill founded.
- haihaibye 6y ago
  Everything is heritable, including political beliefs. You've made the next generation care slightly less on average about global warming. Maybe your kids would have been more intelligent than the global average of ~90 IQ and helped work on or pay for solutions.

folkhack 6y ago

> You can also accept the responsibility of dying childless. It might be lonely and problematic in other ways. Who am I to impose my degrading health/inevitable death onto someone else? I say this having dealt with both of my parent's deaths already. I come from a long family history of mental illness, addiction, abuse, and just some general heinous stuff. Passing my daily struggle along to someone to avoid dying childless seems so selfish to me... to the point that I'd feel pretentious even considering that as a reason TO have children. What I'm trying to say is it's just not as simple as that for many people. I've also accepted that I will likely die alone and just don't care - I've volunteered at nursing homes and EOL is miserable for everyone. Doing anything so people give a f about me down the line just seems incredibly selfish.

lotsofpulp 6y ago
This is why I push for assisted suicidal wherever possible. I would not like to be a burden on anyone else in old age, and if I get to that point I would want to put myself out of my misery. Easier said than done of course.