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It's terrifying to me that selfishness and self-centeredness has apparently taken over that generation of young people. Our society and culture are doomed if th

It's terrifying to me that selfishness and self-centeredness has apparently taken over that generation of young people. Our society and culture are doomed if this doesn't change.

devin 6y ago
OK, boomer. (Couldn't resist. I'll take the downvotes.)
- spicyramen 6y ago
  It is always funny how people without kids tell you how life is with kids...and try to teach the world about it...
  - CogitoCogito 6y ago
    > It is always funny how people without kids tell you how life is with kids...and try to teach the world about it... In my experience I mainly hear about those who've had kids telling people about how life is without kids. Of course they've all been in that position before they had kids, but they certainly have no experience of a lifetime without children. People always seem to believe their wisdom is much greater than the sum of their experience.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - detaro 6y ago
    Wrong thread?
  - josefresco 6y ago
    As a nearly 40-something I find I most funny when 20-somethings tell me how the world should be.
kingkawn 6y ago
It is easily arguable that given the overpopulation of the planet and looming risks of climate change that the people delaying or choosing against having kids are saving the future for humanity.
CogitoCogito 6y ago
> It's terrifying to me that selfishness and self-centeredness has apparently taken over that generation of young people. It's selfish and self-centered to not* have children? > Our society and culture are doomed if this doesn't change. That's one opinion I guess. Personally I believe our society and culture are doomed if we don't significantly decrease the human population. But that's just another opinion. *Edit: I forgot the "not" which obviously entirely changes the meaning of my post.
Trasmatta 6y ago
Choosing not to have kids doesn't mean you're selfish or self-centered. In fact, it's often the complete opposite. Choosing to have kids when you're not in a situation to raise them decently (mentally, physically, emotionally, financially) is the more selfish choice.
troutwine 6y ago
That's one way to look at it. The more realistic is, I think, to recognize that the generation reaching child-bearing age has lived through one major recession, seemingly another is on the way and our response to the first was to increase the indebtedness of everyone broadly. Even past that, with Millenials and lower you're looking at people that take the possibility of catastrophic climate change seriously and have serious anxiety about it. Is it responsible to bring a child into the world if you're broke and if you're dreading the future? OP seems like they run in some affluent circles, but the problem is broader than just among the affluent.
- folkhack 6y ago
  > OP seems like they run in some affluent circles I have a weird situation with one foot in affluent California, and one foot in blue collar Iowa (Cedar Rapids). It's all over in my experience. Also, I have definitely thought about all of those things you've listed in regards to life planning, and would say that they definitely influence me strongly on this.
  - troutwine 6y ago
    > I have a weird situation with one foot in affluent California, and one foot in blue collar Iowa (Cedar Rapids). It's all over in my experience. I wonder how weird that is. My situation is broadly similar, excepting that I'm from Missouri. For what it's worth, I wasn't aiming to call you out as being well-off and out of touch. I was responding more to the bits I thought the intermediate poster was perceiving as selfish and what not. > Also, I have definitely thought about all of those things you've listed in regards to life planning, and would say that they definitely influence me strongly on this. Boy, you and me both.
throwawaygh 6y ago
In my extended family and high school network, nearly everyone in my age group who had a kid in their early 20s has been on welfare or other assistance at some point. The financial stress ruined a lot of those marriages. And it doesn’t scale, since someone’s taxes paid for all that support. Waiting a few extra years for financial security is not selfish. Having children without building up some assets to ride through a financial crisis or bout of unemployment is selfish.
syedkarim 6y ago
Isn't the act of having children just as selfish--or more selfish? I don't know of any parents (I have four children) who had kids to advance the human race. Most of the reasons for having kids--that I have heard--are related to the personal satisfaction of raising children, having a family, and not being alone when old. Not having kids is less selfish than having kids, as the non-parent is not adding any additional stress to society or the environment.
- folkhack 6y ago
  Absolutely - and I'll make the argument that by rushing into something that I'm not ready for financially/emotionally that I would be doing the kid and world a huge disservice.
- golf3 6y ago
  That's an interesting portrait, the bleeding heart anti-natalist, but I don't think it's real.
saiya-jin 6y ago
Well its a reflection of the world previous generations have built to us - you have to study very hard, work hard, in US take massive loans even before entering workforce, no way a single parent can feed whole family like it used to before and so on... People want more enjoyment out of life, and in the same time finding their place in life got harder. Have state support parentship more (ie sponsored kindergardens instead of horribly expensive ones), because modern folks often live too far from their parents. And tons of other supportive things. Ie in Switzerland where I live, you are taxed more if you as a couple get married. Staying single brings more than 1000$ extra per month. Even with 1 kid, we are still worse off compared to not marrying. I mean, how more clear can the state be to giving you a massive fuck you as a parent? People here have kids despite state child support policies, not thanks to them. If you don't feel that you have some support, kids are simply too hard for many. Although, subjectively, they are the best thing in my life.
wing-_-nuts 6y ago
On the contrary; I think it's rather selfless to pay for infrastructure and programs that help raise kids, when you have none yourself. The real narcissism to me, is bringing a child into this world when you're not 100% certain in your abilities to properly raise it. It is a lifetime commitment you need to know you're ready to make before you do so.
tomrod 6y ago
Try not to discount the external pressure the current generation faces. Real wage declines, often dual incomes required just to keep up, two major recessions during prime career building years, primary equity channels increasingly unaffordable, cultural mal-adaptation in many semi-rural/small metro areas to support children in dual-income situations, poor financial literacy as a part of core education, punitive judicial system engendering classism, and more. Not all these problems are new. However, they have increased and are the daily reality this generation faces. Want to see more people have children? Encourage, vote for, and adopt policies that reduce the external costs of child rearing and birthing. Only then, if low birth rate remains extant, can doomsaying and despair over cultural selfishness be acceptable. Until then, focus on bug-fixing the social platform.
hyperbovine 6y ago
Said every older generation about every younger generation, ever. Yet here we are.
golf3 6y ago
It's thinly veiled hedonism, we'll reach some kind of equilibrium eventually but it's going to be painful.
- SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
  Being terrified that if I have a child I'm going to subject myself and it to financial ruin? I still feel like I'm barely surviving. Because I graduated when the 08 recession happened it necessitated a life course correction, and took me until my 30's until I got my career started. Having lived my twenties paycheck to paycheck, I'm just starting to realize I have money in the bank and the next thousand dollar expense isn't going to empty me out. I can't imagine retiring, nor ever really feeling good about where I am in life. When does the hedonism start?
underbluewaters 6y ago
Could someone explain this viewpoint to me? It's a common one but I just don't understand where it's coming from. What am I depriving anyone by not having children? I could make the argument that having children is selfish but I don't really understand the opposite perspective well.
- tehjoker 6y ago
  This is the viewpoint you adopt when you believe in natalist politics but blame individuals rather than the material conditions they must cope with. Natalism comes from a few different sources. Some of them are religious in nature ("God commands us to be fruitful and multiply."). Sometimes it comes from an econometric analysis ("We need more workers to be economically competitive."). Sometimes it comes from a humanistic desire to see people happy with kids. Usually though, it's not that last reason that people start talking about "selfishness". The most relatable and forgiving reason someone might act like this is that they want grandkids and are salty about it.
wonderwonder 6y ago
Who is OP being selfish towards? The children they don't have? If that's the case then is its selfish to stop having kids is it not? Have 2 kids, its selfish not to have 7. Who decides the correct amount of children to have and who decides if that number is greater than 0? There are a variety of factors that are or should be taken into account before having a child, OP is being responsible. If they don't want or feel like they are not ready for a child, not having a child is the responsible option. This 'generation of young people' are incredibly financially insecure and are currently experiencing the second great recession of their lives. Adding the expense of children to that is not a responsible action. Good for OP for making a rational decision that suits their needs.
falsaberN1 6y ago
Depends on the reasons. I cannot have children because of a genetic disorder that my father decided to spread around irresponsibly, having lots of kids with multiple women. That disorder took the life of my brother recently, and I was explicitly advised to NOT have children because it apparently becomes worse every generation, something proven by the children of my stepbrothers and sisters. Try to explain that to people, and you might as well be telling them that the weather is bad, though. It's kinda nonsensical.
tomjen3 6y ago
There are young people all over the world who would go to the US right now, if they could get a visa, because they will have better opportunities there, and because they genuinely love the US culture. The only culture that is liable to die from lack of children is a culture that could not survive in the free.
sershe 6y ago
Having kids in the first world is probably the most selfish act one can do. All other obvious arguments aside (w.r.t. impact on society, the planet, etc. compared to the alternatives), if your motivation was not basically selfish you'd adopt. It's literally the same thing, except you don't get to propagate your genes and might get less of a personal hormone rush.

It's terrifying to me that selfishness and self-centeredness has apparently taken over that generation of young people. Our society and culture are doomed if this doesn't change.

devin 6y ago

OK, boomer. (Couldn't resist. I'll take the downvotes.)

spicyramen 6y ago
It is always funny how people without kids tell you how life is with kids...and try to teach the world about it...
- CogitoCogito 6y ago
  > It is always funny how people without kids tell you how life is with kids...and try to teach the world about it... In my experience I mainly hear about those who've had kids telling people about how life is without kids. Of course they've all been in that position before they had kids, but they certainly have no experience of a lifetime without children. People always seem to believe their wisdom is much greater than the sum of their experience.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- detaro 6y ago
  Wrong thread?
- josefresco 6y ago
  As a nearly 40-something I find I most funny when 20-somethings tell me how the world should be.

kingkawn 6y ago

It is easily arguable that given the overpopulation of the planet and looming risks of climate change that the people delaying or choosing against having kids are saving the future for humanity.

CogitoCogito 6y ago

> It's terrifying to me that selfishness and self-centeredness has apparently taken over that generation of young people. It's selfish and self-centered to not* have children? > Our society and culture are doomed if this doesn't change. That's one opinion I guess. Personally I believe our society and culture are doomed if we don't significantly decrease the human population. But that's just another opinion. *Edit: I forgot the "not" which obviously entirely changes the meaning of my post.

Trasmatta 6y ago

Choosing not to have kids doesn't mean you're selfish or self-centered. In fact, it's often the complete opposite. Choosing to have kids when you're not in a situation to raise them decently (mentally, physically, emotionally, financially) is the more selfish choice.

troutwine 6y ago

That's one way to look at it. The more realistic is, I think, to recognize that the generation reaching child-bearing age has lived through one major recession, seemingly another is on the way and our response to the first was to increase the indebtedness of everyone broadly. Even past that, with Millenials and lower you're looking at people that take the possibility of catastrophic climate change seriously and have serious anxiety about it. Is it responsible to bring a child into the world if you're broke and if you're dreading the future? OP seems like they run in some affluent circles, but the problem is broader than just among the affluent.

folkhack 6y ago
> OP seems like they run in some affluent circles I have a weird situation with one foot in affluent California, and one foot in blue collar Iowa (Cedar Rapids). It's all over in my experience. Also, I have definitely thought about all of those things you've listed in regards to life planning, and would say that they definitely influence me strongly on this.
- troutwine 6y ago
  > I have a weird situation with one foot in affluent California, and one foot in blue collar Iowa (Cedar Rapids). It's all over in my experience. I wonder how weird that is. My situation is broadly similar, excepting that I'm from Missouri. For what it's worth, I wasn't aiming to call you out as being well-off and out of touch. I was responding more to the bits I thought the intermediate poster was perceiving as selfish and what not. > Also, I have definitely thought about all of those things you've listed in regards to life planning, and would say that they definitely influence me strongly on this. Boy, you and me both.

throwawaygh 6y ago

In my extended family and high school network, nearly everyone in my age group who had a kid in their early 20s has been on welfare or other assistance at some point. The financial stress ruined a lot of those marriages. And it doesn’t scale, since someone’s taxes paid for all that support. Waiting a few extra years for financial security is not selfish. Having children without building up some assets to ride through a financial crisis or bout of unemployment is selfish.

syedkarim 6y ago

Isn't the act of having children just as selfish--or more selfish? I don't know of any parents (I have four children) who had kids to advance the human race. Most of the reasons for having kids--that I have heard--are related to the personal satisfaction of raising children, having a family, and not being alone when old. Not having kids is less selfish than having kids, as the non-parent is not adding any additional stress to society or the environment.

folkhack 6y ago
Absolutely - and I'll make the argument that by rushing into something that I'm not ready for financially/emotionally that I would be doing the kid and world a huge disservice.
golf3 6y ago
That's an interesting portrait, the bleeding heart anti-natalist, but I don't think it's real.

saiya-jin 6y ago

Well its a reflection of the world previous generations have built to us - you have to study very hard, work hard, in US take massive loans even before entering workforce, no way a single parent can feed whole family like it used to before and so on... People want more enjoyment out of life, and in the same time finding their place in life got harder. Have state support parentship more (ie sponsored kindergardens instead of horribly expensive ones), because modern folks often live too far from their parents. And tons of other supportive things. Ie in Switzerland where I live, you are taxed more if you as a couple get married. Staying single brings more than 1000$ extra per month. Even with 1 kid, we are still worse off compared to not marrying. I mean, how more clear can the state be to giving you a massive fuck you as a parent? People here have kids despite state child support policies, not thanks to them. If you don't feel that you have some support, kids are simply too hard for many. Although, subjectively, they are the best thing in my life.

wing-_-nuts 6y ago

On the contrary; I think it's rather selfless to pay for infrastructure and programs that help raise kids, when you have none yourself. The real narcissism to me, is bringing a child into this world when you're not 100% certain in your abilities to properly raise it. It is a lifetime commitment you need to know you're ready to make before you do so.

tomrod 6y ago

Try not to discount the external pressure the current generation faces. Real wage declines, often dual incomes required just to keep up, two major recessions during prime career building years, primary equity channels increasingly unaffordable, cultural mal-adaptation in many semi-rural/small metro areas to support children in dual-income situations, poor financial literacy as a part of core education, punitive judicial system engendering classism, and more. Not all these problems are new. However, they have increased and are the daily reality this generation faces. Want to see more people have children? Encourage, vote for, and adopt policies that reduce the external costs of child rearing and birthing. Only then, if low birth rate remains extant, can doomsaying and despair over cultural selfishness be acceptable. Until then, focus on bug-fixing the social platform.

hyperbovine 6y ago

Said every older generation about every younger generation, ever. Yet here we are.

golf3 6y ago

It's thinly veiled hedonism, we'll reach some kind of equilibrium eventually but it's going to be painful.

SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
Being terrified that if I have a child I'm going to subject myself and it to financial ruin? I still feel like I'm barely surviving. Because I graduated when the 08 recession happened it necessitated a life course correction, and took me until my 30's until I got my career started. Having lived my twenties paycheck to paycheck, I'm just starting to realize I have money in the bank and the next thousand dollar expense isn't going to empty me out. I can't imagine retiring, nor ever really feeling good about where I am in life. When does the hedonism start?

underbluewaters 6y ago

Could someone explain this viewpoint to me? It's a common one but I just don't understand where it's coming from. What am I depriving anyone by not having children? I could make the argument that having children is selfish but I don't really understand the opposite perspective well.

tehjoker 6y ago
This is the viewpoint you adopt when you believe in natalist politics but blame individuals rather than the material conditions they must cope with. Natalism comes from a few different sources. Some of them are religious in nature ("God commands us to be fruitful and multiply."). Sometimes it comes from an econometric analysis ("We need more workers to be economically competitive."). Sometimes it comes from a humanistic desire to see people happy with kids. Usually though, it's not that last reason that people start talking about "selfishness". The most relatable and forgiving reason someone might act like this is that they want grandkids and are salty about it.

wonderwonder 6y ago

Who is OP being selfish towards? The children they don't have? If that's the case then is its selfish to stop having kids is it not? Have 2 kids, its selfish not to have 7. Who decides the correct amount of children to have and who decides if that number is greater than 0? There are a variety of factors that are or should be taken into account before having a child, OP is being responsible. If they don't want or feel like they are not ready for a child, not having a child is the responsible option. This 'generation of young people' are incredibly financially insecure and are currently experiencing the second great recession of their lives. Adding the expense of children to that is not a responsible action. Good for OP for making a rational decision that suits their needs.

falsaberN1 6y ago

Depends on the reasons. I cannot have children because of a genetic disorder that my father decided to spread around irresponsibly, having lots of kids with multiple women. That disorder took the life of my brother recently, and I was explicitly advised to NOT have children because it apparently becomes worse every generation, something proven by the children of my stepbrothers and sisters. Try to explain that to people, and you might as well be telling them that the weather is bad, though. It's kinda nonsensical.

tomjen3 6y ago

There are young people all over the world who would go to the US right now, if they could get a visa, because they will have better opportunities there, and because they genuinely love the US culture. The only culture that is liable to die from lack of children is a culture that could not survive in the free.

sershe 6y ago

Having kids in the first world is probably the most selfish act one can do. All other obvious arguments aside (w.r.t. impact on society, the planet, etc. compared to the alternatives), if your motivation was not basically selfish you'd adopt. It's literally the same thing, except you don't get to propagate your genes and might get less of a personal hormone rush.