4 ms·

> I first laughed about calibrating sound systems with microphones to compensate for different cable lengths until a sound engineer let me listen to the differe

> I first laughed about calibrating sound systems with microphones to compensate for different cable lengths until a sound engineer let me listen to the differences. Seriously? Even if electricity has a drift velocity of 50% the speed of light, that's still 150,000 meters in 1 ms - how long is this cable???? There must be something else at play.

danharaj 6y ago
It's not the transmission through the cable that matters, it's the fact that you're using a long cable to put things far enough apart that the speed of sound matters.
- SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
  Ah, so it's the soundstage, not the mic that's the problem?
- scarecrowbob 6y ago
  Yeah, that's correct, but saying "cable length" and not "acoustic time distance cause by microphone placement" seems like it would confuse folks who might not have tried to solve phase alignment problems into thinking that the difference is wholly in the "cable length". But that could just be my reading of the thread.
- atomack 6y ago
  There's something weird here though. I reckon more 4 or 5 ms of latenecy is enough to put me off playing something in time (this is about what you aim for using DAWs to record music) and yet if you just think about playing a piano, the player's ear is about 1m from where the sound is generated. The speed of sound in air is ~300m/s so there's 3 ms of delay right there, even if the hammer mechanism is instantaneous, and I've never heard a pianist complain about delay. Maybe it's just familiarity but even that feels too simple an explanation
  - hutzlibu 6y ago
    "Maybe it's just familiarity but even that feels too simple an explanation" I think it is. Because it has always been like this for anyone since he played the first time. You press the key and (a bit later) music comes. I doubt anyone consciously notice that it is not instant, but your mind notices and adjusts to it.
    - atomack 6y ago
      But I could play either Jerry Lee Lewis style, arms length from the keyboard with my head back, or Glenn Gould style, hunched over the keyboard and my head moves a metre between the two. So that's around the 3ms threshold where I (and the sound engineer above) claim to be able to detect delays, and yet I don't think I'd notice a delay between those two playing positions
      - danharaj 6y ago
        Your brain is very good at compensating for noise and delay in a feedback loop it controls so it's hard to say one way or another. Maybe it feels like a difference in expression instead of a change in delay? A better experiment would be to, like, hm... let's say you're standing a few meters from a metronome and a musician playing to it. If the musician is close to the metronome, you will hear their playing on beat. The further the musician plays from the metronome, the more delay between you hearing the metronome and their playing, unless the musician stands between you and the metronome. When would you notice the delay?
        atomack 6y ago
        Yes, something like that. As I mentioned elsewhere, I wonder if the result might be affected by the acoustics of the room as well as the physical proximity of the sound sources
  - organsnyder 6y ago
    I'm an organist. The organ console is often placed quite some distance from the pipes—especially in the instance of remote divisions such as antiphonal stops (placed at the back of the sanctuary). In addition to distance, the mechanism of the instrument itself introduces a bit of lag. It's something that you just get used to. Choral and orchestral musicians also often deal with these sorts of issues: sometimes they have to play entirely on sight (watching the conductor's baton) rather than listening to the (delayed) sound. I used to play Dance Dance Revolution quite regularly. One of our controllers had a lag that made it unplayable for most people. But I found my brain adjusting to it extremely quickly, and I think it's because I was accustomed to doing that already during organ playing.

danharaj 6y ago

It's not the transmission through the cable that matters, it's the fact that you're using a long cable to put things far enough apart that the speed of sound matters.

SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
Ah, so it's the soundstage, not the mic that's the problem?
scarecrowbob 6y ago
Yeah, that's correct, but saying "cable length" and not "acoustic time distance cause by microphone placement" seems like it would confuse folks who might not have tried to solve phase alignment problems into thinking that the difference is wholly in the "cable length". But that could just be my reading of the thread.
atomack 6y ago
There's something weird here though. I reckon more 4 or 5 ms of latenecy is enough to put me off playing something in time (this is about what you aim for using DAWs to record music) and yet if you just think about playing a piano, the player's ear is about 1m from where the sound is generated. The speed of sound in air is ~300m/s so there's 3 ms of delay right there, even if the hammer mechanism is instantaneous, and I've never heard a pianist complain about delay. Maybe it's just familiarity but even that feels too simple an explanation
- hutzlibu 6y ago
  "Maybe it's just familiarity but even that feels too simple an explanation" I think it is. Because it has always been like this for anyone since he played the first time. You press the key and (a bit later) music comes. I doubt anyone consciously notice that it is not instant, but your mind notices and adjusts to it.
  - atomack 6y ago
    But I could play either Jerry Lee Lewis style, arms length from the keyboard with my head back, or Glenn Gould style, hunched over the keyboard and my head moves a metre between the two. So that's around the 3ms threshold where I (and the sound engineer above) claim to be able to detect delays, and yet I don't think I'd notice a delay between those two playing positions
    - danharaj 6y ago
      Your brain is very good at compensating for noise and delay in a feedback loop it controls so it's hard to say one way or another. Maybe it feels like a difference in expression instead of a change in delay? A better experiment would be to, like, hm... let's say you're standing a few meters from a metronome and a musician playing to it. If the musician is close to the metronome, you will hear their playing on beat. The further the musician plays from the metronome, the more delay between you hearing the metronome and their playing, unless the musician stands between you and the metronome. When would you notice the delay?
      - atomack 6y ago
        Yes, something like that. As I mentioned elsewhere, I wonder if the result might be affected by the acoustics of the room as well as the physical proximity of the sound sources
- organsnyder 6y ago
  I'm an organist. The organ console is often placed quite some distance from the pipes—especially in the instance of remote divisions such as antiphonal stops (placed at the back of the sanctuary). In addition to distance, the mechanism of the instrument itself introduces a bit of lag. It's something that you just get used to. Choral and orchestral musicians also often deal with these sorts of issues: sometimes they have to play entirely on sight (watching the conductor's baton) rather than listening to the (delayed) sound. I used to play Dance Dance Revolution quite regularly. One of our controllers had a lag that made it unplayable for most people. But I found my brain adjusting to it extremely quickly, and I think it's because I was accustomed to doing that already during organ playing.