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Fuzzing: On the Exponential Cost of Vulnerability Discovery [pdf]

77 points by luu 6y ago

cjbprime 6y ago
Just thought I'd drop a note that the second author (Brandon Falk) streams development of his full OS fuzzing hypervisor in Rust on Twitch, have been watching it some. https://twitch.tv/gamozo https://twitch.tv/gamozo
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Cyph0n 6y ago
  +1 for Brandon’s streams. Really fun to watch him writing low-level Rust. He does a great job with explaining his thoughts as he works.
- thephyber 6y ago
  edit: it looks like his Twitter alias does have an unbanned Twitch account[1] that has posted recently. As of March 5, 2019 a Twitter user with that name claims to have been banned from Twitch and moved to YouTube. It looks from a YouTube video, he was live-streaming a RE of a game to cheat (which Twitch and YouTube both may see as ToS violations). [1] https://twitch.tv/gamozo https://twitch.tv/gamozo
  - Cyph0n 6y ago
    Hmm, it turns out he was working on some kind of MapleStory cheat. I played the shit out of that game years ago haha. Just added the stream to my watchlist, so thanks for pointing it out!
  - gamozolabs 6y ago
    Oopsies, yep, I got banned making Maplestory cheats with Ghidra when it came out. Nevertheless, I got unbanned and I still stream at: https://www.twitch.tv/gamozo https://www.twitch.tv/gamozo I upload all the vods at: https://www.youtube.com/user/gamozolabs https://www.youtube.com/user/gamozolabs Hope y'all enjoy the content <3
zozbot234 6y ago
As some might say, there are two ways of building software: Make it simple enough that there are obviously no bugs, or make it so complex that there are no obvious bugs. The latter choice is the most common by far.
- cjfd 6y ago
  Such a tired saying. Software that is 'simple enough that there are obviously no bugs' can not have much more functionality than 'Hello world'. Once upon a time when software development was still a young field there was the illusion that software could be written in such a way that every part of the software was easily inspectable for bugs. In this age we should have learned a long time ago that this is in fact not the case for all but the most limited functionality.
  - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
    I'll take a stab and say, despite having not met him, that tony hoare is probably not witless or naive. In this he was referring to simplicity in implementation, and simplicity in the final product where achievable (AKA don't over-ask). I've worked with a guy that, given a choice, would pick the most complex and extreme way of doing things. I've also met plenty of manager types who will elaborate a simple functional and useful 90% product into monster with repeated scope creep, and who's going to say no to them? Another relevant Hoare quote for exactly this: "There is nothing a mere scientist can say that will stand against the flood of a hundred million dollars. But there is one quality that cannot be purchased in this way — and that is reliability. The price of reliability is the pursuit of the utmost simplicity. It is a price which the very rich find most hard to pay." KISS, or do you disagree with that too?
    - cjfd 6y ago
      I completely agree with the KISS principle and do indeed have to note that it is very often not followed. Much of the software out there could be simpler. But even if it were simpler one would not arrive at the point where the software is so easily understandable that there are obviously no bugs. You may need to implement, say, the rules of chess. This would be simpler if there was no castling and no en passant rules but the programmer does not get to decide the rules of chess and, hence, merely a library for implementing the rules of chess might not be so simple that it can easily be inspected for bugs. It certainly won't be that simple if you also take into account the rules of repeating the same position three times or the fifty move rule. Much of the software that is used in practice has to still do quite a few things more things than are needed for the rules of chess so it has not chance whatsoever to be at the point where all of the bugs are easy to spot.

77 points by luu 6y ago

Just thought I'd drop a note that the second author (Brandon Falk) streams development of his full OS fuzzing hypervisor in Rust on Twitch, have been watching it some. https://twitch.tv/gamozo https://twitch.tv/gamozo

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Cyph0n 6y ago
+1 for Brandon’s streams. Really fun to watch him writing low-level Rust. He does a great job with explaining his thoughts as he works.
thephyber 6y ago
edit: it looks like his Twitter alias does have an unbanned Twitch account[1] that has posted recently. As of March 5, 2019 a Twitter user with that name claims to have been banned from Twitch and moved to YouTube. It looks from a YouTube video, he was live-streaming a RE of a game to cheat (which Twitch and YouTube both may see as ToS violations). [1] https://twitch.tv/gamozo https://twitch.tv/gamozo
- Cyph0n 6y ago
  Hmm, it turns out he was working on some kind of MapleStory cheat. I played the shit out of that game years ago haha. Just added the stream to my watchlist, so thanks for pointing it out!
- gamozolabs 6y ago
  Oopsies, yep, I got banned making Maplestory cheats with Ghidra when it came out. Nevertheless, I got unbanned and I still stream at: https://www.twitch.tv/gamozo https://www.twitch.tv/gamozo I upload all the vods at: https://www.youtube.com/user/gamozolabs https://www.youtube.com/user/gamozolabs Hope y'all enjoy the content <3

zozbot234 6y ago

As some might say, there are two ways of building software: Make it simple enough that there are obviously no bugs, or make it so complex that there are no obvious bugs. The latter choice is the most common by far.

cjfd 6y ago
Such a tired saying. Software that is 'simple enough that there are obviously no bugs' can not have much more functionality than 'Hello world'. Once upon a time when software development was still a young field there was the illusion that software could be written in such a way that every part of the software was easily inspectable for bugs. In this age we should have learned a long time ago that this is in fact not the case for all but the most limited functionality.
- throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
  I'll take a stab and say, despite having not met him, that tony hoare is probably not witless or naive. In this he was referring to simplicity in implementation, and simplicity in the final product where achievable (AKA don't over-ask). I've worked with a guy that, given a choice, would pick the most complex and extreme way of doing things. I've also met plenty of manager types who will elaborate a simple functional and useful 90% product into monster with repeated scope creep, and who's going to say no to them? Another relevant Hoare quote for exactly this: "There is nothing a mere scientist can say that will stand against the flood of a hundred million dollars. But there is one quality that cannot be purchased in this way — and that is reliability. The price of reliability is the pursuit of the utmost simplicity. It is a price which the very rich find most hard to pay." KISS, or do you disagree with that too?
  - cjfd 6y ago
    I completely agree with the KISS principle and do indeed have to note that it is very often not followed. Much of the software out there could be simpler. But even if it were simpler one would not arrive at the point where the software is so easily understandable that there are obviously no bugs. You may need to implement, say, the rules of chess. This would be simpler if there was no castling and no en passant rules but the programmer does not get to decide the rules of chess and, hence, merely a library for implementing the rules of chess might not be so simple that it can easily be inspected for bugs. It certainly won't be that simple if you also take into account the rules of repeating the same position three times or the fifty move rule. Much of the software that is used in practice has to still do quite a few things more things than are needed for the rules of chess so it has not chance whatsoever to be at the point where all of the bugs are easy to spot.