4 ms·

I occasionally find myself interested in learning Haskell, wondering why I haven't done so yet. So I go out and find an introductory tutorial, which is without

I occasionally find myself interested in learning Haskell, wondering why I haven't done so yet. So I go out and find an introductory tutorial, which is without fail written with exactly the sort of smug self-satisfaction that this thread is written. And I immediately lose interest. Maybe the Haskell community is genuinely peopled by the most brilliant minds ever to grace the planet, and the rest of us are out here farming shit. I'll never know, because I'd rather struggle for a lifetime through poorly-implemented languages than have to turn every time I have a problem to a community completely unable to process the idea that they might be wrong.

mrkeen 6y ago
It sure is easier to bash people than learn a new language!
- wyattpeak 6y ago
  While you're not necessary unfair in your jab, I have trouble mustering any sense of guilt when I'm commenting on a thread purporting that every alternative choice in other languages is in fact an error on the part of its creators.
  - tome 6y ago
    > I'm commenting on a thread purporting that every alternative choice in other languages is in fact an error on the part of its creators. That's because the thread is called "Examples of Incorrect Abstractions in Other Languages". You will exactly read about poor choices on the part of other languages' creators. If you want to read about poor choices on the part of Haskell's creators then read threads discussing those. You'll find the Haskell community can provide plenty of examples for discussion there too. Haskell: The Bad Parts https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/4sihcv/haskell_the_bad_parts/ https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/4sihcv/haskell_the... What Template Haskell gets wrong and Racket gets right https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/4tfzah/what_template_haskell_gets_wrong_and_racket_gets/ https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/4tfzah/what_templa... If you had the ultimate power and could change any single thing in Haskell language or Haskell ecosystem/infrastructure, what would you change? https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/9fefoe/if_you_had_the_ultimate_power_and_could_change/ https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/9fefoe/if_you_had_... examples of bad warnings/errors? https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/4yxog6/examples_of_bad_warningserrors/ https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/4yxog6/examples_of... What's wrong with GHC Haskell's current constraint system? https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/117r1p/whats_wrong_with_ghc_haskells_current_constraint/ https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/117r1p/whats_wrong... Could you give me an example where Haskell is not good ? https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/3b94w0/could_you_give_me_an_example_where_haskell_is_not/ https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/3b94w0/could_you_g...
naasking 6y ago
> So I go out and find an introductory tutorial, which is without fail written with exactly the sort of smug self-satisfaction that this thread is written. And I immediately lose interest. I think reading that tone into a tutorial, or from this thread, says more about you than the community. And even if they were smug, consider the possibility that maybe they have good reason. Would you never buy a Tesla because Elon Musk smugly claims his cars are the best on the market? > I'll never know, because I'd rather struggle for a lifetime through poorly-implemented languages than have to turn every time I have a problem to a community completely unable to process the idea that they might be wrong. Cut off your hand to spite your face? Your choice of course, but from my experience as a non-Haskeller, the community is perfectly welcoming and willing to explain details to beginners. Also, if the Haskell "community" never thought they were wrong, they would never disagree. That's clearly not the case if you perused any mailing list or thread.
- wyattpeak 6y ago
  TFA: > which really should have implemented a well-known concept (Monoid, Monad, Alternative, whatever), but they fell short because they (probably) didn't know the concept If that's not smug self-satisfaction, I don't know what is. No consideration that there were reasons they implemented their system in a different way. Suggestion that it was done due to ill-education on their part. I reread it carefully after your accusation. I don't want to too readily assume the worst in people. I am extremely comfortable with the accusation I laid on that thread. But to your other point, I don't consider the possibility that they have good reason for their smugness. I don't find it implausible (as I said, albeit sarcastically), I just find smugness entirely orthogonal to correctness. There are brilliant smug people, but flat-earthers are also among the more smug people I've encountered. If I lived in a world with only ten languages, I might agree I was punishing myself more than them. But I will never learn every language, tool, technique or skill I want to, so why would I ever start here?
  - naasking 6y ago
    > If that's not smug self-satisfaction, I don't know what is. No consideration that there were reasons they implemented their system in a different way. Of course there was consideration. The history surrounding this is well documented. People familiar with the relevant concepts raised the problems with the JS Promise API early on, but were dismissed. Which is also beside the point, because generalizing from N=1 is silly. If I'm being generous, you pointed out one smug Haskeller, where you claimed that the entire community was smug. > If I lived in a world with only ten languages, I might agree I was punishing myself more than them. But I will never learn every language, tool, technique or skill I want to, so why would I ever start here? Allow me to rephrase with an analogy to illustrate: I can easily solve 90% of my problems perfectly well with just integers, reals and complex numbers, so why would I ever learn general vector or matrix math? Certainly that's your perogative, but I hope you'll agree that you're ignoring a powerful tool that would subsume all of your previous understanding of these abstractions, and which would let you solve those same problems, and more, better.

mrkeen 6y ago

It sure is easier to bash people than learn a new language!

wyattpeak 6y ago
While you're not necessary unfair in your jab, I have trouble mustering any sense of guilt when I'm commenting on a thread purporting that every alternative choice in other languages is in fact an error on the part of its creators.
- tome 6y ago
  > I'm commenting on a thread purporting that every alternative choice in other languages is in fact an error on the part of its creators. That's because the thread is called "Examples of Incorrect Abstractions in Other Languages". You will exactly read about poor choices on the part of other languages' creators. If you want to read about poor choices on the part of Haskell's creators then read threads discussing those. You'll find the Haskell community can provide plenty of examples for discussion there too. Haskell: The Bad Parts https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/4sihcv/haskell_the_bad_parts/ https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/4sihcv/haskell_the... What Template Haskell gets wrong and Racket gets right https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/4tfzah/what_template_haskell_gets_wrong_and_racket_gets/ https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/4tfzah/what_templa... If you had the ultimate power and could change any single thing in Haskell language or Haskell ecosystem/infrastructure, what would you change? https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/9fefoe/if_you_had_the_ultimate_power_and_could_change/ https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/9fefoe/if_you_had_... examples of bad warnings/errors? https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/4yxog6/examples_of_bad_warningserrors/ https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/4yxog6/examples_of... What's wrong with GHC Haskell's current constraint system? https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/117r1p/whats_wrong_with_ghc_haskells_current_constraint/ https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/117r1p/whats_wrong... Could you give me an example where Haskell is not good ? https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/3b94w0/could_you_give_me_an_example_where_haskell_is_not/ https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/3b94w0/could_you_g...

naasking 6y ago

> So I go out and find an introductory tutorial, which is without fail written with exactly the sort of smug self-satisfaction that this thread is written. And I immediately lose interest. I think reading that tone into a tutorial, or from this thread, says more about you than the community. And even if they were smug, consider the possibility that maybe they have good reason. Would you never buy a Tesla because Elon Musk smugly claims his cars are the best on the market? > I'll never know, because I'd rather struggle for a lifetime through poorly-implemented languages than have to turn every time I have a problem to a community completely unable to process the idea that they might be wrong. Cut off your hand to spite your face? Your choice of course, but from my experience as a non-Haskeller, the community is perfectly welcoming and willing to explain details to beginners. Also, if the Haskell "community" never thought they were wrong, they would never disagree. That's clearly not the case if you perused any mailing list or thread.

wyattpeak 6y ago
TFA: > which really should have implemented a well-known concept (Monoid, Monad, Alternative, whatever), but they fell short because they (probably) didn't know the concept If that's not smug self-satisfaction, I don't know what is. No consideration that there were reasons they implemented their system in a different way. Suggestion that it was done due to ill-education on their part. I reread it carefully after your accusation. I don't want to too readily assume the worst in people. I am extremely comfortable with the accusation I laid on that thread. But to your other point, I don't consider the possibility that they have good reason for their smugness. I don't find it implausible (as I said, albeit sarcastically), I just find smugness entirely orthogonal to correctness. There are brilliant smug people, but flat-earthers are also among the more smug people I've encountered. If I lived in a world with only ten languages, I might agree I was punishing myself more than them. But I will never learn every language, tool, technique or skill I want to, so why would I ever start here?
- naasking 6y ago
  > If that's not smug self-satisfaction, I don't know what is. No consideration that there were reasons they implemented their system in a different way. Of course there was consideration. The history surrounding this is well documented. People familiar with the relevant concepts raised the problems with the JS Promise API early on, but were dismissed. Which is also beside the point, because generalizing from N=1 is silly. If I'm being generous, you pointed out one smug Haskeller, where you claimed that the entire community was smug. > If I lived in a world with only ten languages, I might agree I was punishing myself more than them. But I will never learn every language, tool, technique or skill I want to, so why would I ever start here? Allow me to rephrase with an analogy to illustrate: I can easily solve 90% of my problems perfectly well with just integers, reals and complex numbers, so why would I ever learn general vector or matrix math? Certainly that's your perogative, but I hope you'll agree that you're ignoring a powerful tool that would subsume all of your previous understanding of these abstractions, and which would let you solve those same problems, and more, better.