11 ms·

Before we investigate complex power to grid schemes - though electric cars could have quite an impact there - it would be great if any electric car came with at

by _ph_ 6y ago

Before we investigate complex power to grid schemes - though electric cars could have quite an impact there - it would be great if any electric car came with at least one power outlet, so that you could power critical appliances in your house during a power outage at least. Like keeping the fridge running, some lighting and heating food on a small cooker. The same would also be great for any kind of camping. Beyond that, electric cars could of course have a huge contribution to the grid, especially with high percentages of solar and wind power. The first step would be to charge the cars dependent on the power supply situation. Loading during peak production and not loading in times with low production or pausing it in times of demand peaks. The final step would be using them to feed power back to the grid, though this needs to be done carefully, as this would increase the wear on the battery.

new_realist 6y ago
Powering critical appliances with your car during an electricity outage is tricky: if the outage lasts for an unexpectedly long time, you end up with no power and stranded at home with a car that has no miles in the tank. Meanwhile, you can buy a generator for as little as $400.
- mrfusion 6y ago
  Last time I bought a generator I used it once. Two years later when I needed it it wouldn’t start. You’ve got to also invest effort in taking care of the thing. Oil changes, don’t leave fuel in it, run it every two weeks.
  - selykg 6y ago
    I've personally found that leaving gas in is fine, under two conditions: 1. You use ethanol free gas. This is more expensive, but it's also the same gas I run in all my lawn equipment so I generally have some around during the summer months. 2. If you plan on letting it sit for awhile use a fuel stabilizer in it. But yea, a safe thing to do is to run it out of fuel, especially if you have ethanol in it, because that shit will kill the plastic parts in the carburetor if it sits. Once it's out of fuel, run it every month for awhile with some new gas in it just to keep it running and active. You'll want to run it long enough that you burn out any potential water in the oil, so let it get to normal operating temperature and run it for a bit longer and you should be good. This is also good for electric start models which have a battery or capacitor that will need a regular recharge.
- abqio 6y ago
  Surely the car could stop powering external devices before draining the battery. It could even be settable depending on how many "miles" you're willing to spend during the outage. A generator would be ideal but if you already have the car it'll do in a pinch.
- hndamien 6y ago
  Not a huge issue if people around you have solar and cars pushing energy back to the grid.
  - new_realist 6y ago
    I would think in an extended power outage, like an earthquake or hurricane, the first thing people would do is to stop their car from draining into the grid. Natural disasters bring out a survival mindset, and people want to keep their options open, and power for their own use.
  - Pfhreak 6y ago
    The grid is not that simple, and many/most solar installs will not work in an outage to prevent islanding. It's extremely dangerous to have a section of wires live during an outage.
    - hndamien 6y ago
      I was suggesting that in a decentralised grip with virtual power plants there would still be power, and not islanding.
- davedx 6y ago
  It's not that tricky, either manually or automatically limit it so battery doesn't deplete to less than 20%?
  - new_realist 6y ago
    Sure, but what if you need to get out of town quickly or go to work or the hospital the next morning? 20% isn’t going to cut it. There is no safe discharge point when there’s a good chance your car will turn into a brick because the power is out.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- netcan 6y ago
  >>Meanwhile, you can buy a generator for as little as $400. You can buy a generator for even less, and it makes for a more robust emergency plan. But... most people don't. The tool you have is always better than the one you don't. That's why phone cameras (and apps generally) are such a game changer. If you own a tesla, you own a big battery and it goes where you go.
  - sizzle 6y ago
    I suspect the general maintenance of the gas generator is too much work for the common person e.g. changing oil, treating the gas if you are letting it sit in the tank for months, etc.
- crazyjncsu 6y ago
  Yeah, but generators are a PITA. Mine has at best a 50/50 chance of starting without having to go to the shop to clean the carb, etc. It would be quite nice to know I had quick, reliable power on tap that is regularly tested just in the normal course of my life.
  - sokoloff 6y ago
    Propane (or natural gas) might be a better answer here if a propane conversion kit is available for your generator engine or if piped NG is on your property. Failing that, buying aviation gasoline (whether 92UL or 100LL) or using gasoline unpolluted with ethanol, a gasoline stabilizer, and exercising the generator for 2 minutes every half-year is probably time and money savings over cleaning the carb. Cleaning the carb is also an easy sub-15 minute task from tool drawer open to tool drawer shut the second time you've done it. Give yourself an hour the first time maybe. A bottle of spray carb cleaner will last you a decade in all likelihood. I go through this every other year or so with seasonal equipment (lawnmower and snowblower) and it's easier to clean the carb when needed than to chase down and keep avgas on hand.
    - brianwawok 6y ago
      Switched all my outdoor tools (push mower, weed eater, leaf blower, chainsaw )To electric, and it has saved so much yearly messing with small engines. Huge win for me. Some of these tools I only use a few times a year, so ends up being near a 1:1 using the tool and doing maintenance. Riding mower is the only gas engine I have to mess with. Counting down the years until a more competitive battery riding mower is sold.
      - athenot 6y ago
        I did the same, with the EGO line of tools. It's so much more enjoyable to do landscaping tasks without the noise. I recently got the Ryobi riding mower, which is a glorified golf cart (lead-acid batteries) but works really well as a rough cut. When the blades are in action, it makes the sound of a box fan, and when the blades are off, it's totally quiet. For the tools that I haven't electrified (my Mantis tiller and Trucut reel mower), I stick with Honda engines. They are a marvel of reliability compared to the others. Only exception is my shredder which has a Kholer engine and does seem to be good too. All these start on first pull after a winter in storage.
- _ph_ 6y ago
  A fully charged Tesla could power my condo for a week at normal loads, in emergency mode probably a month. And of course, you would limit your charge usage to a safe margin. This isn't a plan for huge disasters, but would be a great thing to have for people who live in regions with pretty reliable power supply to bridge outages of a few hours to a day or two. And of course, if you have solar on the roof, the car could be the bridge almost infinitely long.
  - new_realist 6y ago
    The average home draws a kilowatt, so two days for a 100 kWh car at 90% efficiency drawing from 80% to 20%. I agree that for the non-paranoid who don’t need to drive far to work the next morning, it could work out fine.
    - _ph_ 6y ago
      Depends where you are looking. In Germany a typical household draws like 10 kWh/day. If you have a large family, then it might be more, but then you might have a second electric car. In any case, it would be an additional option for power failure, whether that is the right approach for a certain situation, depends on that situation.
      - brnt 6y ago
        We use 1-4kWh/day, and that sort of battery is very easy to find and cheap. Alas, panel installations do not seem to have a socket where you can just plugin a battery, they can only feed back into the grid. At least, not here (NL).
        _ph_ 6y ago
        You should look around, here in Germany many companies are selling solar solutions with a home battery integrated. And of course, there it the Tesla powerwall, which is for the same purpose.
        6y ago
- nicoburns 6y ago
  This is much less of an issue for people who live in cities. At least in Europe, you can probably walk wherever you need to go.
- Someone1234 6y ago
  $400 generators cannot run large home appliances as the initial wattage surge during startup will overload them and cause the breaker to fire. For example, a fridge-freezer might need only 600 watts to run but will also need up to 2000~2500 watts to start. You'll struggle to find a $400 generator at 2K+ watts capacity, even if that load is only for ten seconds. Maybe "own-brand" generators from e.g. Harbor Freight, but would you trust it? And that's just for a single appliance, large space heating/cooling systems are even more problematic/spikey. Buying generators for your home is actually more expensive and complicated than many people realize. You'll quickly find yourself looking at $5K Honda inverter generators w/7K watt capacity even if that seemed overkill at the outset.
  - as-j 6y ago
    I ran my whole little house+farm in Indiana off a 5kW (7.5kW surge) generator for a week, and then on and off during other power outages. It was 12+ years ago, so I don't remember exactly how much I spent, but I'm pretty cheap and didn't have much cash back then so I suspect it was about $500. It was a small household, no AC, but well pumps, fridges etc and it ran just fine.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - bradstewart 6y ago
    For a semi-permanent installation that can plug into your electrical panel, yes you're looking at a lot of money. But I have a Champion portable 3500 watt continuous (4000 watt starting) that was $397 that has no problem running my refrigerator, a few lights, fans, and a small window AC unit. I run extension cords to the specific appliances I need to power during an outage.
  - im3w1l 6y ago
    Could you use a battery or capacitor to bridge the gap?
  - londons_explore 6y ago
    A trick if you need it in a pinch to start a device with a motor from an undersized generator: Wait 10 mins for any heat/pressure inside the fridge to even out. Hook the fridge up to the (stopped) generator. Hold your finger on the breaker to force it to engage, even though the generator isn't running yet. then start the generator with the pullcord. It'll be very hard to pull, so you need both hands... As the generator splutters to life and accelerates, so will the fridge motor. Since both are accelerating slowly, the starting current is far far lower than would happen if the generator was already running when he fridge was connected. Also works for escalators, vacuum cleaners, blenders, angle grinders, etc. If the generator doesn't get up to operating speed within ~15 seconds, stop and give up or the generator coils will burn.
- calaphos 6y ago
  The energy a car uses is insanely large compared to e.g. a fridge. You could probably run it at least a month with a smallish 40kwh battery. Even running everything as normal probably uses less than a kw on average so electricity outrages would have to last multiple days to be a problem.
  - bonestamp2 6y ago
    > electricity outrages would have to last multiple days to be a problem Ya, and that's pretty rare in most areas so it seems like a reasonable plan. I wonder if it's worthwhile doing a small "emergency" scale solar installation or if you may as well just do a full scale system once you've installed the rest of the infrastructure. Looking for opinions...
    - blacksmith_tb 6y ago
      Typical PV installations won't power your house in a blackout (one during the day, that is), since they feed directly into the grid, and then your house receives power from the grid. Hence the market for something like the Tesla Powerwall, which reroutes all that enough that you can power your home from its battery, and charge it from the PV if the grid goes down (for a while - each Powerwall's battery is 13kWh, about 1/6 of a Model 3...) . But to your general question, at this point the panels themselves are a fairly small part of the overall cost, so I don't think most people would want to go small, if you're installing any kind of proper inverter system, make it big enough to cover your usage.
- IkmoIkmo 6y ago
  Sounds like an easy fix (e.g. stop depletion at 35%). And this could depend on the user as well. I live in the middle of the city, I really couldn't care less if my car ran out of miles in terms of an emergency situation, perhaps I'd configure it to 10%. My nearest supermarket is a 5 minute walk. There's 1 thousand neighbours, a hundred different stores, 3 police stations and a hospital within a 10 minute walk. Yes I can't drive to work but the power outage isn't likely to have a significant impact. There may be some edge case scenarios. Say I need to pick up kids from school on the other side of the city during a long-lasting power outage, no taxis, friends, teachers, public transport, bicycles etc available to help in these rare situations... but we're really not in the realm of everyday occurrences anymore at this point. And we shouldn't exaggerate either. A Tesla has 100 kWh. Average household uses about 30kWh per day. And that's not an emergency situation where you ration energy (e.g. not doing a big chunk of laundry once a week). Lighting a room for 10 non-daylight hours a day is about 1 kWh. A full iPhone charge is something like 0.02 kWh? You can charge about 5000 iPhones on a single Tesla charge. Stuff like this, connectivity, refrigeration, lighting, are probably key in an emergency situation. Power outages are not likely a big deal. Of course there are people who live in a rural area etc and need to be more self-sufficient. Very different story. But for 90% of tesla owners this probably will never be a big deal if capped at some minimum battery level.
- natch 6y ago
  Or solar panels. Solar panels are great. No moving parts. No getting robbed at a gas station during SHTF. Yes we all know the sun isn’t always shining, but with batteries in the picture, solar panels are even better. The car is just one more option that can be used in a pinch and wherever you are. The future is looking good.
- coronadisaster 6y ago
  > Meanwhile, you can buy a generator for as little as $400. Just don't buy it at the last minute (all stores run out in widespread power loss) and expect it to sit for years.
davedx 6y ago
> The first step would be to charge the cars dependent on the power supply situation. Loading during peak production and not loading in times with low production or pausing it in times of demand peaks. Vandebron (company I worked for) has been doing this since around 2017 or so. https://vandebron.nl/elektrisch-rijden https://vandebron.nl/elektrisch-rijden I'm pretty sure a lot of other companies are offering it by now too.
zuhayeer 6y ago
I remember back in 2005, when the Hummer H2 was rolling around in the streets. It started to build up this craze with people talking about it everywhere you went, and the most fascinating part of it all to me was that they had power outlets in that thing.
- DonHopkins 6y ago
  Around 2005 or so I was sitting outside a cafe in Amsterdam, and a waiter was taking my order. In the middle of giving him my order, I saw a bright yellow Hummer H2 slowly and loudly driving by, congesting traffic, belching stinking exhaust, and blocking the scenic view. So I excused myself, ran out into the street, and vigorously flipped it off as I always do, then went back to my table, sat down, and apologized to the waiter for the interruption. He said that was no problem, he totally understood, he wanted to do that himself, and he scoffed that they all hated the damn eyesore driving and polluting and parking around the neighborhood's narrow streets, and he thought it was ridiculous and asinine that anybody would drive such a terrible car around the city. Better Call Saul really captured the kind of proud clueless idiotic Hummer owner who had absolutely no idea what people actually thought of him, believed it made him look cool and well hung, and always loved to talk incessantly about his Hummer, as if anybody cared: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmBGSKRGs6A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmBGSKRGs6A
  - martythemaniak 6y ago
    To be honest the cafe scene you described sounds like an over-the-top scene from a movie show as well, much like the one you posted.
    - DonHopkins 6y ago
      The cafe scene really happened. The Dutch tend to be straightforward and just say what they think. Have you ever heard the term "Rolling Coal"? It's an actual "thing" done by the same kind of people who think Hummers make them look cool. Rolling Coal On Protesters Compilation (BlackLivesMatter, Trump Haters, Tree Huggers): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYPMbLO4pAY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYPMbLO4pAY https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal >Rolling coal is the illegal practice of modifying a diesel engine to increase the amount of fuel entering the engine in order to emit large amounts of black or grey sooty exhaust fumes into the air. Rolling coal is sometimes used as a form of anti-environmentalism. Such modifications may include the intentional removal of the particulate filter. Practitioners often additionally modify their vehicles by installing smoke switches and smoke stacks. Modifications to a vehicle to enable rolling coal may cost from US$200 to US$5,000.
kwhitefoot 6y ago
You can connect a 150 W inverter to the cigarette lighter socket. That's enough for my slow cooker on its high setting.
- _ph_ 6y ago
  Right, but I was thinking of a full power outlet, which here in Germany can deliver over 3kW. This would enable to run any electric device you can plug in from your car. Very convenient on the road, and as I wrote, a great solution for emergency power. It seems that the cybertruck will have a power outlet standard, but as the charger electronics already seem to support this, should be an option for all Teslas and other electric vehicles.
  - kwhitefoot 6y ago
    You could just connect an inverter directly to the main battery of course but that requires a bit more effort and might cause problems with warranties.
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  Bad decision as the cig lighter is connected to your 12V battery which powers the accessories not to the high voltage batteries.
  - greendave 6y ago
    Many EVs automatically charge the 12V battery from the traction battery. Still not ideal, but it does work in a pinch.
    - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
      Sure, but think of the conversion losses from traction battery -> 12V battery -> mains AC inverter. In case of an emergency it's definitely usable but not ideal to call it a mainstream use case.
goodcanadian 6y ago
The first step would be to charge the cars dependent on the power supply situation. This is pretty much standard already. It is required that the charger be "smart" in order to qualify for the OLEV grant scheme in the UK. There are also vehicle to grid trials already happening: https://www.ovoenergy.com/electric-cars/vehicle-to-grid-charger https://www.ovoenergy.com/electric-cars/vehicle-to-grid-char... https://www.indra.co.uk/v2g https://www.indra.co.uk/v2g
- _ph_ 6y ago
  It should be standard in all cars, but also all utility companies need to support it - in Germany, we definitely don't have any larger infrastructure rolled out to have the cars charging dependent on the grid load. What we have is special contracts for heat pumps, where the power company can e.g. switch off power for no more than 15 minutes per hour.
  - goodcanadian 6y ago
    Well, it has become standard on the chargers (more or less by law in the UK). Not all energy companies support it, yet, but there are those who do. https://www.indra.co.uk/smart-charger https://www.indra.co.uk/smart-charger
tantalor 6y ago
My Toyota minivan has this. It's not an EV. I assumed this was a standard feature in EV.
cmrdporcupine 6y ago
Our Outlander PHEV has this. Full 12amp outlet, can run power tools, appliances, etc. And has the advantage of being a PHEV so acts as a gas generator once the (admittedly small) battery depletes. It's nice too, there are two outlets; one in the cabin so the kid can charge her laptop on road trips, and another in the back so I can bring my table saw etc. out into my field and run it off the car. Only available in the top trim, unfortunately. Inverters that do this kind of thing are available as third party adapters for most EVs. I can get one for my Volt that runs off the 12v accessory battery hookup in the back.
- londons_explore 6y ago
  It's sad that pretty much all EV cars already have all the hardware necessary to do this - most cars have the hardware to power their charging socket to whatever voltage/current/frequency they want. All it would require is a firmware update and someone to splice a socket onto the end of the charging lead.
  - LeonM 6y ago
    I don't think that that is true. The inverters are designed for power and cost efficiency, so I'd say it is unlikely that are capable at outputting anything other than the high-voltage, high-frequency power intended for the electric motor. The electric motors in most EVs are 3-phase, 400V motors. I expect them to operate at quite high frequencies for efficiency (I'm not sure about that though). So I expect that 115V/50Hz or 230V/60Hz is just way outside of the design envelope of car inverters.
    - cmrdporcupine 6y ago
      Yes it would be very difficult to go from the full 3 phase AC, that runs the drive train, to 120v or 220v 2 phase AC. Third party adapters that do this usually run off the 12v DC accessory battery, which already is hooked up to a DC to DC converter from the car's LiOn battery. Going from 12v DC to 120V AC is obviously already a very solved problem.
pmorici 6y ago
The CyberTruck will have power outlets on it's bed and the reason they are adding the bidirectional capability now people are guessing is because they are on the verge of coming out with their so called million mile battery that has negligible degradation unlike current batteries which makes all the features you describe have negligible effect on battery life.
- floatrock 6y ago
  Rivian demo'd this as well in their "adventure truck" before the Cybertruck
gwbas1c 6y ago
I suspect that you'll be able to buy an adaptor to plug into the charging port. Likewise, you'll probably be able to have an electrician install something similar to a generator transfer switch.
briffle 6y ago
the Chevy Bolt still has a 12V battery for running all the accessories, and its charged by the large battery. My friend got a 12V inverter that can power a few devices.
austinshea 6y ago
Why are you professing these ill-considered demands and pre-conditions?
mperham 6y ago
The Cybertruck is expected to have outlets. Increasingly relevant with electric lawn equipment, etc. https://electricrevs.com/2019/11/21/tesla-plans-to-innovate-ac-power-outlets-on-cybertruck/ https://electricrevs.com/2019/11/21/tesla-plans-to-innovate-...
- Corrado 6y ago
  It would be extra great if it had a battery charging outlet instead of a regular 120v AC outlet. I'm not sure how you would standardize a battery outlet but it has to be more efficient that going from DC->AC-DC.

by _ph_ 6y ago

new_realist 6y ago

Powering critical appliances with your car during an electricity outage is tricky: if the outage lasts for an unexpectedly long time, you end up with no power and stranded at home with a car that has no miles in the tank. Meanwhile, you can buy a generator for as little as $400.

mrfusion 6y ago
Last time I bought a generator I used it once. Two years later when I needed it it wouldn’t start. You’ve got to also invest effort in taking care of the thing. Oil changes, don’t leave fuel in it, run it every two weeks.
- selykg 6y ago
  I've personally found that leaving gas in is fine, under two conditions: 1. You use ethanol free gas. This is more expensive, but it's also the same gas I run in all my lawn equipment so I generally have some around during the summer months. 2. If you plan on letting it sit for awhile use a fuel stabilizer in it. But yea, a safe thing to do is to run it out of fuel, especially if you have ethanol in it, because that shit will kill the plastic parts in the carburetor if it sits. Once it's out of fuel, run it every month for awhile with some new gas in it just to keep it running and active. You'll want to run it long enough that you burn out any potential water in the oil, so let it get to normal operating temperature and run it for a bit longer and you should be good. This is also good for electric start models which have a battery or capacitor that will need a regular recharge.
abqio 6y ago
Surely the car could stop powering external devices before draining the battery. It could even be settable depending on how many "miles" you're willing to spend during the outage. A generator would be ideal but if you already have the car it'll do in a pinch.
hndamien 6y ago
Not a huge issue if people around you have solar and cars pushing energy back to the grid.
- new_realist 6y ago
  I would think in an extended power outage, like an earthquake or hurricane, the first thing people would do is to stop their car from draining into the grid. Natural disasters bring out a survival mindset, and people want to keep their options open, and power for their own use.
- Pfhreak 6y ago
  The grid is not that simple, and many/most solar installs will not work in an outage to prevent islanding. It's extremely dangerous to have a section of wires live during an outage.
  - hndamien 6y ago
    I was suggesting that in a decentralised grip with virtual power plants there would still be power, and not islanding.
davedx 6y ago
It's not that tricky, either manually or automatically limit it so battery doesn't deplete to less than 20%?
- new_realist 6y ago
  Sure, but what if you need to get out of town quickly or go to work or the hospital the next morning? 20% isn’t going to cut it. There is no safe discharge point when there’s a good chance your car will turn into a brick because the power is out.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
netcan 6y ago
>>Meanwhile, you can buy a generator for as little as $400. You can buy a generator for even less, and it makes for a more robust emergency plan. But... most people don't. The tool you have is always better than the one you don't. That's why phone cameras (and apps generally) are such a game changer. If you own a tesla, you own a big battery and it goes where you go.
- sizzle 6y ago
  I suspect the general maintenance of the gas generator is too much work for the common person e.g. changing oil, treating the gas if you are letting it sit in the tank for months, etc.
crazyjncsu 6y ago
Yeah, but generators are a PITA. Mine has at best a 50/50 chance of starting without having to go to the shop to clean the carb, etc. It would be quite nice to know I had quick, reliable power on tap that is regularly tested just in the normal course of my life.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  Propane (or natural gas) might be a better answer here if a propane conversion kit is available for your generator engine or if piped NG is on your property. Failing that, buying aviation gasoline (whether 92UL or 100LL) or using gasoline unpolluted with ethanol, a gasoline stabilizer, and exercising the generator for 2 minutes every half-year is probably time and money savings over cleaning the carb. Cleaning the carb is also an easy sub-15 minute task from tool drawer open to tool drawer shut the second time you've done it. Give yourself an hour the first time maybe. A bottle of spray carb cleaner will last you a decade in all likelihood. I go through this every other year or so with seasonal equipment (lawnmower and snowblower) and it's easier to clean the carb when needed than to chase down and keep avgas on hand.
  - brianwawok 6y ago
    Switched all my outdoor tools (push mower, weed eater, leaf blower, chainsaw )To electric, and it has saved so much yearly messing with small engines. Huge win for me. Some of these tools I only use a few times a year, so ends up being near a 1:1 using the tool and doing maintenance. Riding mower is the only gas engine I have to mess with. Counting down the years until a more competitive battery riding mower is sold.
    - athenot 6y ago
      I did the same, with the EGO line of tools. It's so much more enjoyable to do landscaping tasks without the noise. I recently got the Ryobi riding mower, which is a glorified golf cart (lead-acid batteries) but works really well as a rough cut. When the blades are in action, it makes the sound of a box fan, and when the blades are off, it's totally quiet. For the tools that I haven't electrified (my Mantis tiller and Trucut reel mower), I stick with Honda engines. They are a marvel of reliability compared to the others. Only exception is my shredder which has a Kholer engine and does seem to be good too. All these start on first pull after a winter in storage.
_ph_ 6y ago
A fully charged Tesla could power my condo for a week at normal loads, in emergency mode probably a month. And of course, you would limit your charge usage to a safe margin. This isn't a plan for huge disasters, but would be a great thing to have for people who live in regions with pretty reliable power supply to bridge outages of a few hours to a day or two. And of course, if you have solar on the roof, the car could be the bridge almost infinitely long.
- new_realist 6y ago
  The average home draws a kilowatt, so two days for a 100 kWh car at 90% efficiency drawing from 80% to 20%. I agree that for the non-paranoid who don’t need to drive far to work the next morning, it could work out fine.
  - _ph_ 6y ago
    Depends where you are looking. In Germany a typical household draws like 10 kWh/day. If you have a large family, then it might be more, but then you might have a second electric car. In any case, it would be an additional option for power failure, whether that is the right approach for a certain situation, depends on that situation.
    - brnt 6y ago
      We use 1-4kWh/day, and that sort of battery is very easy to find and cheap. Alas, panel installations do not seem to have a socket where you can just plugin a battery, they can only feed back into the grid. At least, not here (NL).
      - _ph_ 6y ago
        You should look around, here in Germany many companies are selling solar solutions with a home battery integrated. And of course, there it the Tesla powerwall, which is for the same purpose.
        6y ago
nicoburns 6y ago
This is much less of an issue for people who live in cities. At least in Europe, you can probably walk wherever you need to go.
Someone1234 6y ago
$400 generators cannot run large home appliances as the initial wattage surge during startup will overload them and cause the breaker to fire. For example, a fridge-freezer might need only 600 watts to run but will also need up to 2000~2500 watts to start. You'll struggle to find a $400 generator at 2K+ watts capacity, even if that load is only for ten seconds. Maybe "own-brand" generators from e.g. Harbor Freight, but would you trust it? And that's just for a single appliance, large space heating/cooling systems are even more problematic/spikey. Buying generators for your home is actually more expensive and complicated than many people realize. You'll quickly find yourself looking at $5K Honda inverter generators w/7K watt capacity even if that seemed overkill at the outset.
- as-j 6y ago
  I ran my whole little house+farm in Indiana off a 5kW (7.5kW surge) generator for a week, and then on and off during other power outages. It was 12+ years ago, so I don't remember exactly how much I spent, but I'm pretty cheap and didn't have much cash back then so I suspect it was about $500. It was a small household, no AC, but well pumps, fridges etc and it ran just fine.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- bradstewart 6y ago
  For a semi-permanent installation that can plug into your electrical panel, yes you're looking at a lot of money. But I have a Champion portable 3500 watt continuous (4000 watt starting) that was $397 that has no problem running my refrigerator, a few lights, fans, and a small window AC unit. I run extension cords to the specific appliances I need to power during an outage.
- im3w1l 6y ago
  Could you use a battery or capacitor to bridge the gap?
- londons_explore 6y ago
  A trick if you need it in a pinch to start a device with a motor from an undersized generator: Wait 10 mins for any heat/pressure inside the fridge to even out. Hook the fridge up to the (stopped) generator. Hold your finger on the breaker to force it to engage, even though the generator isn't running yet. then start the generator with the pullcord. It'll be very hard to pull, so you need both hands... As the generator splutters to life and accelerates, so will the fridge motor. Since both are accelerating slowly, the starting current is far far lower than would happen if the generator was already running when he fridge was connected. Also works for escalators, vacuum cleaners, blenders, angle grinders, etc. If the generator doesn't get up to operating speed within ~15 seconds, stop and give up or the generator coils will burn.
calaphos 6y ago
The energy a car uses is insanely large compared to e.g. a fridge. You could probably run it at least a month with a smallish 40kwh battery. Even running everything as normal probably uses less than a kw on average so electricity outrages would have to last multiple days to be a problem.
- bonestamp2 6y ago
  > electricity outrages would have to last multiple days to be a problem Ya, and that's pretty rare in most areas so it seems like a reasonable plan. I wonder if it's worthwhile doing a small "emergency" scale solar installation or if you may as well just do a full scale system once you've installed the rest of the infrastructure. Looking for opinions...
  - blacksmith_tb 6y ago
    Typical PV installations won't power your house in a blackout (one during the day, that is), since they feed directly into the grid, and then your house receives power from the grid. Hence the market for something like the Tesla Powerwall, which reroutes all that enough that you can power your home from its battery, and charge it from the PV if the grid goes down (for a while - each Powerwall's battery is 13kWh, about 1/6 of a Model 3...) . But to your general question, at this point the panels themselves are a fairly small part of the overall cost, so I don't think most people would want to go small, if you're installing any kind of proper inverter system, make it big enough to cover your usage.
IkmoIkmo 6y ago
Sounds like an easy fix (e.g. stop depletion at 35%). And this could depend on the user as well. I live in the middle of the city, I really couldn't care less if my car ran out of miles in terms of an emergency situation, perhaps I'd configure it to 10%. My nearest supermarket is a 5 minute walk. There's 1 thousand neighbours, a hundred different stores, 3 police stations and a hospital within a 10 minute walk. Yes I can't drive to work but the power outage isn't likely to have a significant impact. There may be some edge case scenarios. Say I need to pick up kids from school on the other side of the city during a long-lasting power outage, no taxis, friends, teachers, public transport, bicycles etc available to help in these rare situations... but we're really not in the realm of everyday occurrences anymore at this point. And we shouldn't exaggerate either. A Tesla has 100 kWh. Average household uses about 30kWh per day. And that's not an emergency situation where you ration energy (e.g. not doing a big chunk of laundry once a week). Lighting a room for 10 non-daylight hours a day is about 1 kWh. A full iPhone charge is something like 0.02 kWh? You can charge about 5000 iPhones on a single Tesla charge. Stuff like this, connectivity, refrigeration, lighting, are probably key in an emergency situation. Power outages are not likely a big deal. Of course there are people who live in a rural area etc and need to be more self-sufficient. Very different story. But for 90% of tesla owners this probably will never be a big deal if capped at some minimum battery level.
natch 6y ago
Or solar panels. Solar panels are great. No moving parts. No getting robbed at a gas station during SHTF. Yes we all know the sun isn’t always shining, but with batteries in the picture, solar panels are even better. The car is just one more option that can be used in a pinch and wherever you are. The future is looking good.
coronadisaster 6y ago
> Meanwhile, you can buy a generator for as little as $400. Just don't buy it at the last minute (all stores run out in widespread power loss) and expect it to sit for years.

davedx 6y ago

> The first step would be to charge the cars dependent on the power supply situation. Loading during peak production and not loading in times with low production or pausing it in times of demand peaks. Vandebron (company I worked for) has been doing this since around 2017 or so. https://vandebron.nl/elektrisch-rijden https://vandebron.nl/elektrisch-rijden I'm pretty sure a lot of other companies are offering it by now too.

zuhayeer 6y ago

I remember back in 2005, when the Hummer H2 was rolling around in the streets. It started to build up this craze with people talking about it everywhere you went, and the most fascinating part of it all to me was that they had power outlets in that thing.

DonHopkins 6y ago
Around 2005 or so I was sitting outside a cafe in Amsterdam, and a waiter was taking my order. In the middle of giving him my order, I saw a bright yellow Hummer H2 slowly and loudly driving by, congesting traffic, belching stinking exhaust, and blocking the scenic view. So I excused myself, ran out into the street, and vigorously flipped it off as I always do, then went back to my table, sat down, and apologized to the waiter for the interruption. He said that was no problem, he totally understood, he wanted to do that himself, and he scoffed that they all hated the damn eyesore driving and polluting and parking around the neighborhood's narrow streets, and he thought it was ridiculous and asinine that anybody would drive such a terrible car around the city. Better Call Saul really captured the kind of proud clueless idiotic Hummer owner who had absolutely no idea what people actually thought of him, believed it made him look cool and well hung, and always loved to talk incessantly about his Hummer, as if anybody cared: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmBGSKRGs6A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmBGSKRGs6A
- martythemaniak 6y ago
  To be honest the cafe scene you described sounds like an over-the-top scene from a movie show as well, much like the one you posted.
  - DonHopkins 6y ago
    The cafe scene really happened. The Dutch tend to be straightforward and just say what they think. Have you ever heard the term "Rolling Coal"? It's an actual "thing" done by the same kind of people who think Hummers make them look cool. Rolling Coal On Protesters Compilation (BlackLivesMatter, Trump Haters, Tree Huggers): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYPMbLO4pAY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYPMbLO4pAY https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal >Rolling coal is the illegal practice of modifying a diesel engine to increase the amount of fuel entering the engine in order to emit large amounts of black or grey sooty exhaust fumes into the air. Rolling coal is sometimes used as a form of anti-environmentalism. Such modifications may include the intentional removal of the particulate filter. Practitioners often additionally modify their vehicles by installing smoke switches and smoke stacks. Modifications to a vehicle to enable rolling coal may cost from US$200 to US$5,000.

kwhitefoot 6y ago

You can connect a 150 W inverter to the cigarette lighter socket. That's enough for my slow cooker on its high setting.

_ph_ 6y ago
Right, but I was thinking of a full power outlet, which here in Germany can deliver over 3kW. This would enable to run any electric device you can plug in from your car. Very convenient on the road, and as I wrote, a great solution for emergency power. It seems that the cybertruck will have a power outlet standard, but as the charger electronics already seem to support this, should be an option for all Teslas and other electric vehicles.
- kwhitefoot 6y ago
  You could just connect an inverter directly to the main battery of course but that requires a bit more effort and might cause problems with warranties.
ChuckNorris89 6y ago
Bad decision as the cig lighter is connected to your 12V battery which powers the accessories not to the high voltage batteries.
- greendave 6y ago
  Many EVs automatically charge the 12V battery from the traction battery. Still not ideal, but it does work in a pinch.
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    Sure, but think of the conversion losses from traction battery -> 12V battery -> mains AC inverter. In case of an emergency it's definitely usable but not ideal to call it a mainstream use case.

goodcanadian 6y ago

The first step would be to charge the cars dependent on the power supply situation. This is pretty much standard already. It is required that the charger be "smart" in order to qualify for the OLEV grant scheme in the UK. There are also vehicle to grid trials already happening: https://www.ovoenergy.com/electric-cars/vehicle-to-grid-charger https://www.ovoenergy.com/electric-cars/vehicle-to-grid-char... https://www.indra.co.uk/v2g https://www.indra.co.uk/v2g

_ph_ 6y ago
It should be standard in all cars, but also all utility companies need to support it - in Germany, we definitely don't have any larger infrastructure rolled out to have the cars charging dependent on the grid load. What we have is special contracts for heat pumps, where the power company can e.g. switch off power for no more than 15 minutes per hour.
- goodcanadian 6y ago
  Well, it has become standard on the chargers (more or less by law in the UK). Not all energy companies support it, yet, but there are those who do. https://www.indra.co.uk/smart-charger https://www.indra.co.uk/smart-charger

tantalor 6y ago

My Toyota minivan has this. It's not an EV. I assumed this was a standard feature in EV.

cmrdporcupine 6y ago

Our Outlander PHEV has this. Full 12amp outlet, can run power tools, appliances, etc. And has the advantage of being a PHEV so acts as a gas generator once the (admittedly small) battery depletes. It's nice too, there are two outlets; one in the cabin so the kid can charge her laptop on road trips, and another in the back so I can bring my table saw etc. out into my field and run it off the car. Only available in the top trim, unfortunately. Inverters that do this kind of thing are available as third party adapters for most EVs. I can get one for my Volt that runs off the 12v accessory battery hookup in the back.

londons_explore 6y ago
It's sad that pretty much all EV cars already have all the hardware necessary to do this - most cars have the hardware to power their charging socket to whatever voltage/current/frequency they want. All it would require is a firmware update and someone to splice a socket onto the end of the charging lead.
- LeonM 6y ago
  I don't think that that is true. The inverters are designed for power and cost efficiency, so I'd say it is unlikely that are capable at outputting anything other than the high-voltage, high-frequency power intended for the electric motor. The electric motors in most EVs are 3-phase, 400V motors. I expect them to operate at quite high frequencies for efficiency (I'm not sure about that though). So I expect that 115V/50Hz or 230V/60Hz is just way outside of the design envelope of car inverters.
  - cmrdporcupine 6y ago
    Yes it would be very difficult to go from the full 3 phase AC, that runs the drive train, to 120v or 220v 2 phase AC. Third party adapters that do this usually run off the 12v DC accessory battery, which already is hooked up to a DC to DC converter from the car's LiOn battery. Going from 12v DC to 120V AC is obviously already a very solved problem.

pmorici 6y ago

The CyberTruck will have power outlets on it's bed and the reason they are adding the bidirectional capability now people are guessing is because they are on the verge of coming out with their so called million mile battery that has negligible degradation unlike current batteries which makes all the features you describe have negligible effect on battery life.

floatrock 6y ago
Rivian demo'd this as well in their "adventure truck" before the Cybertruck

gwbas1c 6y ago

I suspect that you'll be able to buy an adaptor to plug into the charging port. Likewise, you'll probably be able to have an electrician install something similar to a generator transfer switch.

briffle 6y ago

the Chevy Bolt still has a 12V battery for running all the accessories, and its charged by the large battery. My friend got a 12V inverter that can power a few devices.

austinshea 6y ago

Why are you professing these ill-considered demands and pre-conditions?

mperham 6y ago

The Cybertruck is expected to have outlets. Increasingly relevant with electric lawn equipment, etc. https://electricrevs.com/2019/11/21/tesla-plans-to-innovate-ac-power-outlets-on-cybertruck/ https://electricrevs.com/2019/11/21/tesla-plans-to-innovate-...

Corrado 6y ago
It would be extra great if it had a battery charging outlet instead of a regular 120v AC outlet. I'm not sure how you would standardize a battery outlet but it has to be more efficient that going from DC->AC-DC.