3 ms·

> We just don't have any evidence of that. Are you aware that high school boys soccer and hockey teams are competitive with elite, world class women's teams? D

by creato 6y ago

> We just don't have any evidence of that. Are you aware that high school boys soccer and hockey teams are competitive with elite, world class women's teams? Do you think the advantages that men appear to have are anywhere near fully erased by transitioning genders? > I don't think this is as big of a problem as people pretend it is. This is not really about the specific issue to anyone on either side. To you, it's about acceptance of transgender people. To your opponents, it's about not accepting the denial of what seems like blindingly obvious reality.

slg 6y ago
>Are you aware that high school boys soccer and hockey teams are competitive with elite, world class women's teams? Do you think the advantages that men appear to have are anywhere near fully erased by transitioning genders? You are exaggerating with that first claim. It is in no way common for high school male athletes to be competitive against world class female athletes. Secondly, the advantage that men have is certainly decreased when transitioning. I don't believe it is "fully erased", I simply don't think we need to have the goal of fully erasing any advantage. I won't agree with you on that until there is an NBA for men under 6 feet for me fairly compete in against my peers who were similarly disadvantaged at birth. >This is not really about the specific issue to anyone on either side. To you, it's about acceptance of transgender people. To your opponents, it's about not accepting the denial of what seems like blindingly obvious reality. I am perfectly willing to admit that my primary motivation here is the acceptance of transgender people. I don't know what to tell you if you don't prioritize that over the sanctity of the outcome of some high school girls soccer game.
- creato 6y ago
  > I am perfectly willing to admit that my primary motivation here is the acceptance of transgender people. I don't know what to tell you if you don't prioritize that over the sanctity of the outcome of some high school girls soccer game. Here's the problem (aside from deriding something a lot of average people care deeply about): you are forcing these two things to be in conflict, when they simply aren't to most people, including Joe Rogan (and myself). By forcing them into conflict, you are hurting the cause of transgender rights far more than helping it.
  - slg 6y ago
    Banning trans women from competing in sports it telling them they aren't "real" women. The societal repercussions of that are much larger than the outcome of high school athletics (and this issue is almost always about high school athletics and below). I fundamentally don't understand arguments to the contrary. For the record, I care deeply about sports. I think it is fundamental part of both our culture at large and the education of a lot of people. You can dig deep into my comment history on HN and see I regularly defend the importance of sports to the usually derogatory "sportsball" comments that are common in intellectual and technological communities like HN. I just don't think the outcome of specific games is important enough to justify further ostracizing a group of people who are already incredibly marginalized.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - jasonv 6y ago
      I don’t understand equating competing in a sport as representative of being a “real” [gender]. I support trans+ rights, but I haven’t been able to get my head around some of the assertions that seem to be bedrock here.
- parthdesai 6y ago
  > You are exaggerating with that first claim. It is in no way common for high school male athletes to be competitive against world class female athletes. They're not though. https://www.reddit.com/r/sports/comments/3ceeih/the_us_mens_u17_soccer_team_played_the_uswnt/ https://www.reddit.com/r/sports/comments/3ceeih/the_us_mens_...
  - slg 6y ago
    The US Men's U-17 team is not a high school team. It is a team made up of world class athletes who are high school aged. That is a huge distinction. You are saying a team a world class men can beat a team of slightly older world class women. That isn't surprising.
    - parthdesai 6y ago
      The US women's team is best in the world, US men's team doesn't even come close to being best 20 teams in the world. They are high level athletes but not world class (especially for soccer) by any sorts. Anyway's here another link: https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/ https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-b...
      - slg 6y ago
        Come on, you are just splitting hairs now. Neither the youth national team or the academy team of a professional sports club are anywhere close to being equal to normal high school teams. I'll admit "world class" is a vague phrase, but wouldn't you admit these athletes are all much closer to a world class standard than they are to the average high school player?
  - joshuamorton 6y ago
    That's the best under 17 soccer players. It's essentially people who will be pro soccer players in 1-2 years. That's not the same as common hs male athletes.
- mydongle 6y ago
  I know you don't care about the high school girls soccer game, but the girls do, and their parents do. And yes, having women's sports not be dominated by former men is a priority for people.

by creato 6y ago

slg 6y ago

>Are you aware that high school boys soccer and hockey teams are competitive with elite, world class women's teams? Do you think the advantages that men appear to have are anywhere near fully erased by transitioning genders? You are exaggerating with that first claim. It is in no way common for high school male athletes to be competitive against world class female athletes. Secondly, the advantage that men have is certainly decreased when transitioning. I don't believe it is "fully erased", I simply don't think we need to have the goal of fully erasing any advantage. I won't agree with you on that until there is an NBA for men under 6 feet for me fairly compete in against my peers who were similarly disadvantaged at birth. >This is not really about the specific issue to anyone on either side. To you, it's about acceptance of transgender people. To your opponents, it's about not accepting the denial of what seems like blindingly obvious reality. I am perfectly willing to admit that my primary motivation here is the acceptance of transgender people. I don't know what to tell you if you don't prioritize that over the sanctity of the outcome of some high school girls soccer game.

creato 6y ago
> I am perfectly willing to admit that my primary motivation here is the acceptance of transgender people. I don't know what to tell you if you don't prioritize that over the sanctity of the outcome of some high school girls soccer game. Here's the problem (aside from deriding something a lot of average people care deeply about): you are forcing these two things to be in conflict, when they simply aren't to most people, including Joe Rogan (and myself). By forcing them into conflict, you are hurting the cause of transgender rights far more than helping it.
- slg 6y ago
  Banning trans women from competing in sports it telling them they aren't "real" women. The societal repercussions of that are much larger than the outcome of high school athletics (and this issue is almost always about high school athletics and below). I fundamentally don't understand arguments to the contrary. For the record, I care deeply about sports. I think it is fundamental part of both our culture at large and the education of a lot of people. You can dig deep into my comment history on HN and see I regularly defend the importance of sports to the usually derogatory "sportsball" comments that are common in intellectual and technological communities like HN. I just don't think the outcome of specific games is important enough to justify further ostracizing a group of people who are already incredibly marginalized.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - jasonv 6y ago
    I don’t understand equating competing in a sport as representative of being a “real” [gender]. I support trans+ rights, but I haven’t been able to get my head around some of the assertions that seem to be bedrock here.
parthdesai 6y ago
> You are exaggerating with that first claim. It is in no way common for high school male athletes to be competitive against world class female athletes. They're not though. https://www.reddit.com/r/sports/comments/3ceeih/the_us_mens_u17_soccer_team_played_the_uswnt/ https://www.reddit.com/r/sports/comments/3ceeih/the_us_mens_...
- slg 6y ago
  The US Men's U-17 team is not a high school team. It is a team made up of world class athletes who are high school aged. That is a huge distinction. You are saying a team a world class men can beat a team of slightly older world class women. That isn't surprising.
  - parthdesai 6y ago
    The US women's team is best in the world, US men's team doesn't even come close to being best 20 teams in the world. They are high level athletes but not world class (especially for soccer) by any sorts. Anyway's here another link: https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/ https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-b...
    - slg 6y ago
      Come on, you are just splitting hairs now. Neither the youth national team or the academy team of a professional sports club are anywhere close to being equal to normal high school teams. I'll admit "world class" is a vague phrase, but wouldn't you admit these athletes are all much closer to a world class standard than they are to the average high school player?
- joshuamorton 6y ago
  That's the best under 17 soccer players. It's essentially people who will be pro soccer players in 1-2 years. That's not the same as common hs male athletes.
mydongle 6y ago
I know you don't care about the high school girls soccer game, but the girls do, and their parents do. And yes, having women's sports not be dominated by former men is a priority for people.