5 ms·

You are not giving the full extent of his comments on transgender people. He is against women who transitioned as adults from competing against other women. H

by slg 6y ago

You are not giving the full extent of his comments on transgender people. He is against women who transitioned as adults from competing against other women. He is also against people taking steps as a child to make transitioning easier as an adult such as taking completely reversible hormone blockers to delay puberty until they are old enough to transition. So he leaves no possible path for a transgender woman to compete in sports. It seems like he wants transgender people out of sports completely. In my opinion, the whole discussion of transgender people in sports is a proxy war for their role in society as a whole. Transgender people have been allowed to compete in the Olympics and most American sports (at least at the college level) for roughly a decade if not longer. It is still extremely rare for a transgender woman to dominate other woman in any of these sporting events. It just doesn't seem like a possibility worth focusing on when compared to the downside of further marginalizing the transgender community at large by singling them out for harsher treatment.

free_rms 6y ago
> In my opinion, the whole discussion of transgender people in sports is a proxy war for their role in society as a whole. There are a lot of people out there who care way more about sports than they do about the role of transgender people in society.
- slg 6y ago
  When you talk to most cisgender people, two of the biggest transgender issues they mention are sports and bathrooms. Meanwhile when transgender people are allowed to choose what sport to compete in or what bathroom to choose, there have been very few problems from them. It seems to me that lots of people just fundamentally believe that transgender people are wrong, gross, or whatever derogatory term you want to use and they work backwards from there looking for excuses before eventually landing on sports and bathrooms.
  - free_rms 6y ago
    Have you ever been an athlete in a serious way? Honest question. If people who've competed or deeply cared about sports seem to all get hung up on this, maybe they're seeing something you're not? Your two issues are issues because, even without any prejudice, there are physical differences that we have to handle and it's not easy to figure out how to be fair to all parties. In the case we're talking about, for example, the trans women fractured a woman's skull. Broke her skull. Was the skull the problem here? Should it have been less breakable to match the rhetoric?
    - slg 6y ago
      Yes, I have been heavily involved in high level athletics. MMA is a violent sport. There are risks to anyone participating in it. If you are seriously worried about protecting athletes, there should be more widespread changes than just eliminating the handful of transgender athletes because I guarantee the majority of injuries occur in matches between two cisgender athletes.
    - abqio 6y ago
      It's important to make a distinction here. One that Rogan fails to make in his comments. Fox fractured her opponent's orbital. This is a facial fracture, not a skull fracture. Skull fractures are life threatening whereas facial fractures generally are not. There is a large discrepancy in the force required to cause a facial vs skull fracture as well.
  - creato 6y ago
    What if the reality is that transgender people already have a reasonable set of rights in our society? If the front line of the battle is people being assholes about pronouns and transgender women competing in combat sports... maybe the war is won?
    - CathedralBorrow 6y ago
      I dont know, I'd say the front line of the battle is things like transgender persons having 9x the suicide rate of the general population. Is that a war that looks won to you?
  - 2019-nCoV 6y ago
    Some women are uncomfortable sharing bathrooms with trans-women. Should we continue to dictate how these women should behave and feel?
    - XMPPwocky 6y ago
      We generally established that "I don't feel comfortable being around them" is not an excuse to discriminate back in the 60s. To clarify: would you argue that the existence of separate drinking fountains for white people and black people is justified because many white people feel uncomfortable drinking from the same fountain a black person has just used? If not, why not?
      - EdSharkey 6y ago
        Hm, I guess you could make an civil rights argument, but it's a tough sell when it comes to the ladies' room. There is a different take you may not be thinking of given that biological males' minds are naturally wretched and beyond contempt when it comes to everything dealing with sex. Some percentage of trans-women are trans primarily because that's a kink for them. It's their kink that has erupted onto their public person and now defines them. Perhaps that percentage is vanishingly small. But I say they must exist given that those women started with a male brain and given the disturbing preponderance of bimbo hypno erotic audio that's targeted primarily at men who want to get lost. See, there's simply no way to have this forbidden conversation because of the reactions. Oh well, fuck it, these are my observations and opinions. Into the breach! I gather that one source of women's discomfort is when they suspect it's a kink. Maybe it's a shared glance, or inappropriate attire or utterances made. It's not like biological women get to interrogate their trans sisters as to why they've come to the bathroom today. If they've come to enjoy the sexual thrill of a taboo space, then that's a violation. To a much lesser degree, men's bodies also stink worse than women do and make bigger shits that splash louder in the bowl - also very off-putting to women I'm sure. Not that trans-women can do anything about that, but it still factors. If you don't agree and all trans-women's hearts and motives are pure, well then God bless.
        6y ago
darkerside 6y ago
Can you help me understand how it's fair for transitioned women to compete against men? I would expect this to be unfair in many sports because of natural biological differences. Not a troll, just looking for relevant facts to inform my world view.
voz_ 6y ago
People born as men who transition to women, and I fully support them, have unfair advantages against people born as women. Would you agree with that statement? A better solution would be to allow a gender-agnostic bracket alongside women and men, where anyone can compete. To people downvoting me: Please use the upvote/downvote as marking my contribution relevant or irrelevant, not to mark disagreement. PS: I fully support trans people in all their rights, should go without saying but that is far from the default these days.
- slg 6y ago
  The part of that first statement that I question is the "unfair" part. Almost all world class athletes are born with a natural gift that most of us don't have. Most of those athletes need to train and hone that gift over decades to be truly elite, but that natural gift is still present. No matter how many hours I train playing basketball and no matter how long Lebron James goes without touching a basketball, I am never going to beat him in a game of one-on-one. Is that "unfair" or is that just how sports work? I don't see birth gender as any different than that. That said, I think it is reasonable to put certain restrictions on transgender athletes such as rules regarding hormone treatments. I am just not an expert enough in the field to say exactly what those restrictions should be. Also we generally do have gender-agnostic brackets in sports. What we call men's sports are generally gender-agnostic. People of any gender are free to compete in them. The question for transgender athletes is almost always whether than can compete in women's sports.
  - look_lookatme 6y ago
    If you were born an average American male and you trained your whole youth (and I mean really trained) to be the best basketball player you could be, you wouldn't ever beat Lebron James but you'd beat a lot of elite women basketball players. The physical gifts bestowed upon you by your mom would give you the advantage
    - slg 6y ago
      We just don't have any evidence of that. Like I said in a previous post, we are in the second decade of this being allowed. Where are all the world class transgender athletes that are dominating men on a routine basis? People always point to the same 2 or 3 examples while acting like this is a widespread epidemic of men deciding to switch genders just to win athletic competitions. I don't think this is as big of a problem as people pretend it is. EDIT: Please keep my post in context. When I say there is no evidence for that, I am not referring to a basic physiological difference between men and women. I am referring specifically to this: "If you were born an average American male and you trained your whole youth... you'd beat a lot of elite women basketball players." There is no basis for a statement like that.
kojeovo 6y ago
> It seems like he wants transgender people out of sports completely I think this is something you're reading that's not quite there. He isn't sensitive to the topic, but I don't think he hates trans people.
- ohmaigad 6y ago
  It is the "if you aren't with us you are against us" mentality. Any opposing opinion (even when based on valid arguments) is labeled as hate speech.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
cburgas 6y ago
His comment was specifically aimed at martial arts and I think could be extended to any contact sport. The on average smaller stature, different bone structure etc are giant disadvantages and would most likely lead to a higher potential of harm and damages. I think nobody cares if differently gendered people run a race, you would see who is the fastest and people can draw their own conclusions if that is fair or not. I think this is very different if people start punching or run into each other at full speed.

by slg 6y ago

free_rms 6y ago

> In my opinion, the whole discussion of transgender people in sports is a proxy war for their role in society as a whole. There are a lot of people out there who care way more about sports than they do about the role of transgender people in society.

slg 6y ago
When you talk to most cisgender people, two of the biggest transgender issues they mention are sports and bathrooms. Meanwhile when transgender people are allowed to choose what sport to compete in or what bathroom to choose, there have been very few problems from them. It seems to me that lots of people just fundamentally believe that transgender people are wrong, gross, or whatever derogatory term you want to use and they work backwards from there looking for excuses before eventually landing on sports and bathrooms.
- free_rms 6y ago
  Have you ever been an athlete in a serious way? Honest question. If people who've competed or deeply cared about sports seem to all get hung up on this, maybe they're seeing something you're not? Your two issues are issues because, even without any prejudice, there are physical differences that we have to handle and it's not easy to figure out how to be fair to all parties. In the case we're talking about, for example, the trans women fractured a woman's skull. Broke her skull. Was the skull the problem here? Should it have been less breakable to match the rhetoric?
  - slg 6y ago
    Yes, I have been heavily involved in high level athletics. MMA is a violent sport. There are risks to anyone participating in it. If you are seriously worried about protecting athletes, there should be more widespread changes than just eliminating the handful of transgender athletes because I guarantee the majority of injuries occur in matches between two cisgender athletes.
  - abqio 6y ago
    It's important to make a distinction here. One that Rogan fails to make in his comments. Fox fractured her opponent's orbital. This is a facial fracture, not a skull fracture. Skull fractures are life threatening whereas facial fractures generally are not. There is a large discrepancy in the force required to cause a facial vs skull fracture as well.
- creato 6y ago
  What if the reality is that transgender people already have a reasonable set of rights in our society? If the front line of the battle is people being assholes about pronouns and transgender women competing in combat sports... maybe the war is won?
  - CathedralBorrow 6y ago
    I dont know, I'd say the front line of the battle is things like transgender persons having 9x the suicide rate of the general population. Is that a war that looks won to you?
- 2019-nCoV 6y ago
  Some women are uncomfortable sharing bathrooms with trans-women. Should we continue to dictate how these women should behave and feel?
  - XMPPwocky 6y ago
    We generally established that "I don't feel comfortable being around them" is not an excuse to discriminate back in the 60s. To clarify: would you argue that the existence of separate drinking fountains for white people and black people is justified because many white people feel uncomfortable drinking from the same fountain a black person has just used? If not, why not?
    - EdSharkey 6y ago
      Hm, I guess you could make an civil rights argument, but it's a tough sell when it comes to the ladies' room. There is a different take you may not be thinking of given that biological males' minds are naturally wretched and beyond contempt when it comes to everything dealing with sex. Some percentage of trans-women are trans primarily because that's a kink for them. It's their kink that has erupted onto their public person and now defines them. Perhaps that percentage is vanishingly small. But I say they must exist given that those women started with a male brain and given the disturbing preponderance of bimbo hypno erotic audio that's targeted primarily at men who want to get lost. See, there's simply no way to have this forbidden conversation because of the reactions. Oh well, fuck it, these are my observations and opinions. Into the breach! I gather that one source of women's discomfort is when they suspect it's a kink. Maybe it's a shared glance, or inappropriate attire or utterances made. It's not like biological women get to interrogate their trans sisters as to why they've come to the bathroom today. If they've come to enjoy the sexual thrill of a taboo space, then that's a violation. To a much lesser degree, men's bodies also stink worse than women do and make bigger shits that splash louder in the bowl - also very off-putting to women I'm sure. Not that trans-women can do anything about that, but it still factors. If you don't agree and all trans-women's hearts and motives are pure, well then God bless.
      - 6y ago

darkerside 6y ago

Can you help me understand how it's fair for transitioned women to compete against men? I would expect this to be unfair in many sports because of natural biological differences. Not a troll, just looking for relevant facts to inform my world view.

voz_ 6y ago

People born as men who transition to women, and I fully support them, have unfair advantages against people born as women. Would you agree with that statement? A better solution would be to allow a gender-agnostic bracket alongside women and men, where anyone can compete. To people downvoting me: Please use the upvote/downvote as marking my contribution relevant or irrelevant, not to mark disagreement. PS: I fully support trans people in all their rights, should go without saying but that is far from the default these days.

slg 6y ago
The part of that first statement that I question is the "unfair" part. Almost all world class athletes are born with a natural gift that most of us don't have. Most of those athletes need to train and hone that gift over decades to be truly elite, but that natural gift is still present. No matter how many hours I train playing basketball and no matter how long Lebron James goes without touching a basketball, I am never going to beat him in a game of one-on-one. Is that "unfair" or is that just how sports work? I don't see birth gender as any different than that. That said, I think it is reasonable to put certain restrictions on transgender athletes such as rules regarding hormone treatments. I am just not an expert enough in the field to say exactly what those restrictions should be. Also we generally do have gender-agnostic brackets in sports. What we call men's sports are generally gender-agnostic. People of any gender are free to compete in them. The question for transgender athletes is almost always whether than can compete in women's sports.
- look_lookatme 6y ago
  If you were born an average American male and you trained your whole youth (and I mean really trained) to be the best basketball player you could be, you wouldn't ever beat Lebron James but you'd beat a lot of elite women basketball players. The physical gifts bestowed upon you by your mom would give you the advantage
  - slg 6y ago
    We just don't have any evidence of that. Like I said in a previous post, we are in the second decade of this being allowed. Where are all the world class transgender athletes that are dominating men on a routine basis? People always point to the same 2 or 3 examples while acting like this is a widespread epidemic of men deciding to switch genders just to win athletic competitions. I don't think this is as big of a problem as people pretend it is. EDIT: Please keep my post in context. When I say there is no evidence for that, I am not referring to a basic physiological difference between men and women. I am referring specifically to this: "If you were born an average American male and you trained your whole youth... you'd beat a lot of elite women basketball players." There is no basis for a statement like that.

kojeovo 6y ago

> It seems like he wants transgender people out of sports completely I think this is something you're reading that's not quite there. He isn't sensitive to the topic, but I don't think he hates trans people.

ohmaigad 6y ago
It is the "if you aren't with us you are against us" mentality. Any opposing opinion (even when based on valid arguments) is labeled as hate speech.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

cburgas 6y ago

His comment was specifically aimed at martial arts and I think could be extended to any contact sport. The on average smaller stature, different bone structure etc are giant disadvantages and would most likely lead to a higher potential of harm and damages. I think nobody cares if differently gendered people run a race, you would see who is the fastest and people can draw their own conclusions if that is fair or not. I think this is very different if people start punching or run into each other at full speed.