4 ms·

In the linked thread the Microsoft developers explicitly deny that this is the intent, if that's worth anything to you. The goal, rather, is to take all the us

by Rusky 6y ago

In the linked thread the Microsoft developers explicitly deny that this is the intent, if that's worth anything to you. The goal, rather, is to take all the usual (for the Linux side) GPU stuff and give it access to the Windows host's GPU, when running on WSL. That is, they are already working on getting OpenGL/Vulkan/etc. to run on top of this: https://www.collabora.com/news-and-blog/news-and-events/introducing-opencl-and-opengl-on-directx.html https://www.collabora.com/news-and-blog/news-and-events/intr... Rather than "get people to write code that runs on WSL2 but not regular Linux," the goal is "get code that runs on regular Linux but not WSL to run on WSL2."

ghostpepper 6y ago
Does the intent matter if the result is the same?
- Rusky 6y ago
  Will the result be the same? I don't see why it would be, given the circumstances.
  - fouc 6y ago
    If their boss comes to them with a mandate later, their intentions will be forced to change. Also, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
xabotage 6y ago
The developers' word is irrelevant. Microsoft is a business. Microsoft will pursue its long term business interests. Developers are hired to do what the business directs. So the question is really, "what would best serve Microsoft's business interests?" and not "what do the developers intend?" because in time only one question matters and unfortunately it's not the one with the best interests of non-windows-users in mind.
- Rusky 6y ago
  The developers' intent does align with Microsoft's current interests -- as you say, they are hired to do what the business directs. Perhaps their interests will shift in the future, as they clearly have in the past. But the things they build now are not from the "extend" phase of an EEE arc. At worst they are in the "embrace" phase.
  - bigbizisverywyz 6y ago
    Embrace phase sounds about right. If MS make it as easy to run desktop apps on Windows as it is on Linux, then the question of why even run a dedicated Linux machine if you can do everything on Windows? becomes relevant. I suppose clipboard integration already works? And drag n' drop? Once that mindset is heavily entrenched (e.g. in Enterprises), then the extend phase can begin. I don't think MS are as scared as they were previously when Linux started to dominate the server landscape, and swathes of new developers (especially web backend) moved to a java, ROR and Python (or LAMP), where MS were absolutely nowhere in the stack.
- ToFab123 6y ago
  The initial implementation of WSL was not mandated by the business. it was created by the developers that were tasked with exploring how to run Android apps (on the ms phone) and they went bananas and invented and created WSL. First later the business side of Microsoft came in to play on wsl
  - skohan 6y ago
    It doesn't matter where it came from. WSL is owned by MS, and the most rational framework to predict how they will use it is that they will attempt to leverage it to support their business interests. MS is not in the business of paying developers to give away nice things for free.
- zamalek 6y ago
  > Microsoft will pursue its long term business interests. Just like all positive sum games, open source is in everyone's interests, including Microsoft's. Egoistic alturism: serving your own interests [through] serving everyone else's interests. All the people here railing on how Microsoft is destroying open source clearly don't understand the very premise of the thing that they think they are defending.
quantummkv 6y ago
> In the linked thread the Microsoft developers explicitly deny that this is the intent Unfortunately, the developers don't call the shots in there. And the ones calling the shots don't give a single damn about these developers. Microsoft is back to it's old shenanigans after a big PR blitz.
- colejohnson66 6y ago
  > Microsoft is back to it's old shenanigans after a big PR blitz. And your evidence being what exactly? Yes, they’ve done EEE before, but there’s no evidence that they are doing it now. It’s been two decades.
  - quantummkv 6y ago
    This announcement is the evidence. They release some directx stubs that are completely useless outside of windows and of absolutely zero importance to anyone in the Linux Ecosystem and make a huge Microsoft hearts Linux push with it with confetti, unicorns and blushing dev-twitter influencers. While the actual meat of directx will still be proprietary and windows-exclusive where they call the shots and make the money.
    - colejohnson66 6y ago
      Releasing something exclusive is not evidence of EEE. Yes, it’s embracing, but that’s it. How do you know they don’t plan to port DirectX to Linux? They’re currently attempting to upstream their changes, so why wouldn’t they port DX itself? They also don’t have to open source it (although I wish they would); they could just release a binary blob that you download and install. Also, how do you expect Microsoft to kill Linux? To me, it seems that people who willingly choose to use Linux over Windows are generally the kinds of people who won’t be persuaded to move back. Microsoft can’t kill Linux. Have you ever looked past your preconceived biases and considered that maybe Microsoft has actually had a change in culture over two decades? I don’t think so, because the people who scream “EEE” are the kinds of people who’ll never be swayed in their opinion.
FeepingCreature 6y ago
Why would Microsoft's word be worth anything to anyone?

by Rusky 6y ago

ghostpepper 6y ago

Does the intent matter if the result is the same?

Rusky 6y ago
Will the result be the same? I don't see why it would be, given the circumstances.
- fouc 6y ago
  If their boss comes to them with a mandate later, their intentions will be forced to change. Also, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

xabotage 6y ago

The developers' word is irrelevant. Microsoft is a business. Microsoft will pursue its long term business interests. Developers are hired to do what the business directs. So the question is really, "what would best serve Microsoft's business interests?" and not "what do the developers intend?" because in time only one question matters and unfortunately it's not the one with the best interests of non-windows-users in mind.

Rusky 6y ago
The developers' intent does align with Microsoft's current interests -- as you say, they are hired to do what the business directs. Perhaps their interests will shift in the future, as they clearly have in the past. But the things they build now are not from the "extend" phase of an EEE arc. At worst they are in the "embrace" phase.
- bigbizisverywyz 6y ago
  Embrace phase sounds about right. If MS make it as easy to run desktop apps on Windows as it is on Linux, then the question of why even run a dedicated Linux machine if you can do everything on Windows? becomes relevant. I suppose clipboard integration already works? And drag n' drop? Once that mindset is heavily entrenched (e.g. in Enterprises), then the extend phase can begin. I don't think MS are as scared as they were previously when Linux started to dominate the server landscape, and swathes of new developers (especially web backend) moved to a java, ROR and Python (or LAMP), where MS were absolutely nowhere in the stack.
ToFab123 6y ago
The initial implementation of WSL was not mandated by the business. it was created by the developers that were tasked with exploring how to run Android apps (on the ms phone) and they went bananas and invented and created WSL. First later the business side of Microsoft came in to play on wsl
- skohan 6y ago
  It doesn't matter where it came from. WSL is owned by MS, and the most rational framework to predict how they will use it is that they will attempt to leverage it to support their business interests. MS is not in the business of paying developers to give away nice things for free.
zamalek 6y ago
> Microsoft will pursue its long term business interests. Just like all positive sum games, open source is in everyone's interests, including Microsoft's. Egoistic alturism: serving your own interests [through] serving everyone else's interests. All the people here railing on how Microsoft is destroying open source clearly don't understand the very premise of the thing that they think they are defending.

quantummkv 6y ago

> In the linked thread the Microsoft developers explicitly deny that this is the intent Unfortunately, the developers don't call the shots in there. And the ones calling the shots don't give a single damn about these developers. Microsoft is back to it's old shenanigans after a big PR blitz.

colejohnson66 6y ago
> Microsoft is back to it's old shenanigans after a big PR blitz. And your evidence being what exactly? Yes, they’ve done EEE before, but there’s no evidence that they are doing it now. It’s been two decades.
- quantummkv 6y ago
  This announcement is the evidence. They release some directx stubs that are completely useless outside of windows and of absolutely zero importance to anyone in the Linux Ecosystem and make a huge Microsoft hearts Linux push with it with confetti, unicorns and blushing dev-twitter influencers. While the actual meat of directx will still be proprietary and windows-exclusive where they call the shots and make the money.
  - colejohnson66 6y ago
    Releasing something exclusive is not evidence of EEE. Yes, it’s embracing, but that’s it. How do you know they don’t plan to port DirectX to Linux? They’re currently attempting to upstream their changes, so why wouldn’t they port DX itself? They also don’t have to open source it (although I wish they would); they could just release a binary blob that you download and install. Also, how do you expect Microsoft to kill Linux? To me, it seems that people who willingly choose to use Linux over Windows are generally the kinds of people who won’t be persuaded to move back. Microsoft can’t kill Linux. Have you ever looked past your preconceived biases and considered that maybe Microsoft has actually had a change in culture over two decades? I don’t think so, because the people who scream “EEE” are the kinds of people who’ll never be swayed in their opinion.

FeepingCreature 6y ago

Why would Microsoft's word be worth anything to anyone?