5 ms·

>in Egypt, the Great Pyramid was once covered with gleaming white limestone, but this was removed and used to build mosques This is a very misleading distortio

by nemo 6y ago

>in Egypt, the Great Pyramid was once covered with gleaming white limestone, but this was removed and used to build mosques This is a very misleading distortion of history. The limestone casing on the Great Pyramid was destroyed in an earthquake in 1308 CE. The limestone rubble was pulled from the base of the pyramid and repurposed for building though much of it was also burned in kilns for lime like the marble of many ancient buildings and temples from the ancient world all around the Mediterranean by people of many and various religions and nationalities. >When the Arab armies conquered North Africa, it was one of the richest and most developed areas in the Mediterranean. After the Arab conquest, it became a backwater and never achieved the prominence it had before. You really ought to read up on the Islamic Golden Age.

Amezarak 6y ago
This comes across a little patronizing. The poster is making the point that North Africa had been part of a civilized empire for centuries, and full of wealthy cities, some famous for their learning. Some of history’s greatest minds lived in Roman North Africa. These cities were conquered. Some were sacked and destroyed. There was major loss of life, economic destruction, and loss of property, including written works. The conquerors, at the time, did not much appreciate the value of what they were destroying. The fact that the region later somewhat recovered does not take away from the fact that, if we’re talking about setbacks for human progress, the early Muslim conquests were one. Yes, there was a great reawakening where the conquerors began to appreciate the legacy that remained, and began translating and building on the works that escaped their destruction. That doesn’t make the intervening period better. And certainly the poster is correct that cities like Alexandria and Carthage never again achieved their old prominence.
- nemo 6y ago
  Your understanding of the region is not an accurate account. Not at all. There have been various sophisticated civilizations in the region, among them various Islamic states. The rises and falls of various sophisticated civilizations came about for a variety of reasons, most of which were prior to the Islamic world existing. The Islamic Golden Age brought Alexandria back from being a declining backwater with its schools closed by late Rome's Christian emperors to returning to a center of learning, one that helped preserve important classical texts that were lost in the West, esp in mathematics and the sciences, and where they were significantly further developed.
  - Amezarak 6y ago
    Nobody is disputing the existence of the Islamic Golden Age. We are talking about the intermediate, bloody and chaotic period caused by the Muslim conquests that rapidly spread from the Arabian peninsula and overcame the Persian Empire and most of the Roman Empire. These empires didn’t go away for a “variety of reasons”, they went away because they were violently conquered by invading force in the name of religion. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Muslim_conquests https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Muslim_conquests As for your claims about Alexandria: > Following the Arab conquest of Egypt in AD 641, the city was plundered and lost its significance before re-emerging in the modern era https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandria https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandria Once can also hardly read accounts of the conquest of Alexandria and think “my, what an improvement.” A lot of people died. Parts of the city burned. You are also wrong that the schools were closed prior. That was certainly not the case. Alexandria was a major center of learning up until the conquest. Carthage was sacked and deliberately destroyed to prevent it from being retaken. Look, yes, there’s a group of people out there that understates they Islamic Golden Age. But that doesn’t take away from the reality that the early Muslim conquests were absolutely ruinous. People were still writing those “important classical texts” you mention when they were killed and their texts burned. I doubt they would have much appreciated that the conquerors much later translated what survived the flames.
    - luckydata 6y ago
      About the "schools being closed" thing, I had a chance to compare notes (so to speak) with a few friends that grew up in north african muslim countries. I remember they had a few interesting takes that showed a VERY distorted perspective on a few aspects of medieval history (we all do, history books are written by whoever runs the schools), a little beyond the self congratulatory takes I experienced in European schools. I still remember vividly an Egyptian friend of mine that was dead sure Egypt won the Six Days War against Israel to mention one of the most obviously wrong things he believed.
      - TomMarius 6y ago
        Similar as with Russians.
- csomar 6y ago
  The region never recovered post-Carthage. I live here, so if you are talking about a powerful civilization, then there is only Carthage. After that it was mostly trading cities going through boom-bust which are setup by other civilizations (Rome/Byzantium/Caliphates/Ottoman...) > These cities were conquered. Some were sacked and destroyed. There was major loss of life, economic destruction, and loss of property, including written works. The conquerors, at the time, did not much appreciate the value of what they were destroying. It's just life. North Africa was just a bunch of tribes/cities. It is easier for an invader to tackle them one city at a time than taking a full united civilization.
- billfruit 6y ago
  Much of Roman Africa was in a state of deterioration due to Christan invaders like Visigoths(I think) who overrun the Roman African provinces towards the decline of the Western Roman Empire. At the time of the expansion of Islam, there was no longer even a Western Roman Empire.
  - billfruit 6y ago
    I should have said Vandals instead of Visigoths. The Vandals ruled over Africa during and after the end of the Western Roman Empire. Later in one of the most dashing military campaigns, the Eastern Roman Empire(Byzantines) forces under Belisarius captured most of the territory of the former Western Roman Empire, including the African provinces after defeating Vandals. The African provinces were then organized into the Exarchate, which is what Muslim armies eventually overcame in the 690s AD.
brigandish 6y ago
If that "Golden Age" includes the destruction of Nalanda[1], then forgive me if I agree with the person you're replying to, it was an incredibly destructive empire that aggressively expanded and destroyed anything that deemed heretic. As such, it's not exceptional in either sense. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nalanda#Decline_and_destruction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nalanda#Decline_and_destructio... Edit - As I can't reply to stuff like this (it deserved to die) but in case I get anything more like it: > Find me an "empire" that wasn't destructive. You're disingenuous, and likely racist as all hell. Fuck off. I'm making that exact point, all empires are destructive, hence the it's not exceptional in either sense. Thanks to all those who can read and all those who don't go around calling others racists for no good reason.
- micmil 6y ago
  Find me an "empire" that wasn't destructive. You're disingenuous, and likely racist as all hell. Fuck off.
- Alkhwarizmi 6y ago
  I think your conflating Far East Asians and Middle East! Learn your geography first before you speak
- nemo 6y ago
  Acknowledging that virtually every major civilization's Golden Age was accompanied by expansionist military imperialism and was destructive as well as creative is a fine position to take, but were you to take that position honestly then you wouldn't be singling out only one specific civilization to spit venom at. That's why you really are making a racist argument, even if your biases blind you to your racism. edit: "racist" was technically incorrect - bigoted is a more correct term.
  - brigandish 6y ago
    An utterly specious response. 1. I'm not singling out anything but the subject. If you want a different response to compare it with, pick a different subject. 2. It's not venomous, and even if it were, it's irrelevant to everything here (quite the feat). You're supposed to show prejudice, venom with reason and/or evidence is not prejudice. 3. Since a) my point was not about a race and b) the subject is not a race, then it's not a racist argument. Far from it. 4. Hence, I'm not a racist. Or maybe I am but you certainly can't ascertain it from your fatuous logic nor anything I've written here. 5. Also hence, and however, you are an apologist. You need to up your game.
feteru 6y ago
Any recommendations for fun-to-read books about this period?
- iamacyborg 6y ago
  I read these on holiday in Morroco a couple years ago and thoroughly enjoyed them. Not necessarily the correct period so I'm open to see other people's suggestions too. * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/878061.Moorish_Spain https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/878061.Moorish_Spain * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/336859.The_Golden_Trade_of_the_Moors https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/336859.The_Golden_Trade_... * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4398835-the-berbers-and-the-islamic-state https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4398835-the-berbers-and-...

by nemo 6y ago

Amezarak 6y ago

This comes across a little patronizing. The poster is making the point that North Africa had been part of a civilized empire for centuries, and full of wealthy cities, some famous for their learning. Some of history’s greatest minds lived in Roman North Africa. These cities were conquered. Some were sacked and destroyed. There was major loss of life, economic destruction, and loss of property, including written works. The conquerors, at the time, did not much appreciate the value of what they were destroying. The fact that the region later somewhat recovered does not take away from the fact that, if we’re talking about setbacks for human progress, the early Muslim conquests were one. Yes, there was a great reawakening where the conquerors began to appreciate the legacy that remained, and began translating and building on the works that escaped their destruction. That doesn’t make the intervening period better. And certainly the poster is correct that cities like Alexandria and Carthage never again achieved their old prominence.

nemo 6y ago
Your understanding of the region is not an accurate account. Not at all. There have been various sophisticated civilizations in the region, among them various Islamic states. The rises and falls of various sophisticated civilizations came about for a variety of reasons, most of which were prior to the Islamic world existing. The Islamic Golden Age brought Alexandria back from being a declining backwater with its schools closed by late Rome's Christian emperors to returning to a center of learning, one that helped preserve important classical texts that were lost in the West, esp in mathematics and the sciences, and where they were significantly further developed.
- Amezarak 6y ago
  Nobody is disputing the existence of the Islamic Golden Age. We are talking about the intermediate, bloody and chaotic period caused by the Muslim conquests that rapidly spread from the Arabian peninsula and overcame the Persian Empire and most of the Roman Empire. These empires didn’t go away for a “variety of reasons”, they went away because they were violently conquered by invading force in the name of religion. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Muslim_conquests https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Muslim_conquests As for your claims about Alexandria: > Following the Arab conquest of Egypt in AD 641, the city was plundered and lost its significance before re-emerging in the modern era https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandria https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandria Once can also hardly read accounts of the conquest of Alexandria and think “my, what an improvement.” A lot of people died. Parts of the city burned. You are also wrong that the schools were closed prior. That was certainly not the case. Alexandria was a major center of learning up until the conquest. Carthage was sacked and deliberately destroyed to prevent it from being retaken. Look, yes, there’s a group of people out there that understates they Islamic Golden Age. But that doesn’t take away from the reality that the early Muslim conquests were absolutely ruinous. People were still writing those “important classical texts” you mention when they were killed and their texts burned. I doubt they would have much appreciated that the conquerors much later translated what survived the flames.
  - luckydata 6y ago
    About the "schools being closed" thing, I had a chance to compare notes (so to speak) with a few friends that grew up in north african muslim countries. I remember they had a few interesting takes that showed a VERY distorted perspective on a few aspects of medieval history (we all do, history books are written by whoever runs the schools), a little beyond the self congratulatory takes I experienced in European schools. I still remember vividly an Egyptian friend of mine that was dead sure Egypt won the Six Days War against Israel to mention one of the most obviously wrong things he believed.
    - TomMarius 6y ago
      Similar as with Russians.
csomar 6y ago
The region never recovered post-Carthage. I live here, so if you are talking about a powerful civilization, then there is only Carthage. After that it was mostly trading cities going through boom-bust which are setup by other civilizations (Rome/Byzantium/Caliphates/Ottoman...) > These cities were conquered. Some were sacked and destroyed. There was major loss of life, economic destruction, and loss of property, including written works. The conquerors, at the time, did not much appreciate the value of what they were destroying. It's just life. North Africa was just a bunch of tribes/cities. It is easier for an invader to tackle them one city at a time than taking a full united civilization.
billfruit 6y ago
Much of Roman Africa was in a state of deterioration due to Christan invaders like Visigoths(I think) who overrun the Roman African provinces towards the decline of the Western Roman Empire. At the time of the expansion of Islam, there was no longer even a Western Roman Empire.
- billfruit 6y ago
  I should have said Vandals instead of Visigoths. The Vandals ruled over Africa during and after the end of the Western Roman Empire. Later in one of the most dashing military campaigns, the Eastern Roman Empire(Byzantines) forces under Belisarius captured most of the territory of the former Western Roman Empire, including the African provinces after defeating Vandals. The African provinces were then organized into the Exarchate, which is what Muslim armies eventually overcame in the 690s AD.

brigandish 6y ago

If that "Golden Age" includes the destruction of Nalanda[1], then forgive me if I agree with the person you're replying to, it was an incredibly destructive empire that aggressively expanded and destroyed anything that deemed heretic. As such, it's not exceptional in either sense. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nalanda#Decline_and_destruction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nalanda#Decline_and_destructio... Edit - As I can't reply to stuff like this (it deserved to die) but in case I get anything more like it: > Find me an "empire" that wasn't destructive. You're disingenuous, and likely racist as all hell. Fuck off. I'm making that exact point, all empires are destructive, hence the it's not exceptional in either sense. Thanks to all those who can read and all those who don't go around calling others racists for no good reason.

micmil 6y ago
Find me an "empire" that wasn't destructive. You're disingenuous, and likely racist as all hell. Fuck off.
Alkhwarizmi 6y ago
I think your conflating Far East Asians and Middle East! Learn your geography first before you speak
nemo 6y ago
Acknowledging that virtually every major civilization's Golden Age was accompanied by expansionist military imperialism and was destructive as well as creative is a fine position to take, but were you to take that position honestly then you wouldn't be singling out only one specific civilization to spit venom at. That's why you really are making a racist argument, even if your biases blind you to your racism. edit: "racist" was technically incorrect - bigoted is a more correct term.
- brigandish 6y ago
  An utterly specious response. 1. I'm not singling out anything but the subject. If you want a different response to compare it with, pick a different subject. 2. It's not venomous, and even if it were, it's irrelevant to everything here (quite the feat). You're supposed to show prejudice, venom with reason and/or evidence is not prejudice. 3. Since a) my point was not about a race and b) the subject is not a race, then it's not a racist argument. Far from it. 4. Hence, I'm not a racist. Or maybe I am but you certainly can't ascertain it from your fatuous logic nor anything I've written here. 5. Also hence, and however, you are an apologist. You need to up your game.

feteru 6y ago

Any recommendations for fun-to-read books about this period?

iamacyborg 6y ago
I read these on holiday in Morroco a couple years ago and thoroughly enjoyed them. Not necessarily the correct period so I'm open to see other people's suggestions too. * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/878061.Moorish_Spain https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/878061.Moorish_Spain * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/336859.The_Golden_Trade_of_the_Moors https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/336859.The_Golden_Trade_... * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4398835-the-berbers-and-the-islamic-state https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4398835-the-berbers-and-...