26 ms·

Finally, a Startup Visa That Works

329 points by joshbert 16y ago

petercooper 16y ago
Foreign entrepreneurs whose business has generated at least $100,000 in sales from the U.S. Now that's more like it! If US consumers are sending lots of dollars out of the country, it makes sense to bring those entrepreneurs into the country and keep the dollars at home. Not all of us need funding so this proviso could help us out without having to go looking for arbitrary angel cash.
- tomjen3 16y ago
  Wouldn't it makes sense to get those who sell outside the US even more? that could potentially get the trade deficient back to zero, which this measure won't.
  - tghnjtghn 16y ago
    Most of the monetary requirements are to stop scams - ie where millionaire's kid bills family company abroad for $100K and gets to stay in the US running his company. It's also the reason for requiring qualified investors - to stop this just being family money recycled. Although it is a bit silly that if you invented say a malaria vaccine and had a $Bn in foreign sales you would be deported!
    - huherto 16y ago
      IMHO, it is in the best interest of the US to let rich people in. They have a big potential to invest or consume.
      - tghnjtghn 16y ago
        Depends on what you mean by 'rich' - $1M, $10M, $1Bn ? There have been classes of investment visa for people bringing $1M into the country. But then people simply used it to buy a house = $1M in some areas. So then there were requirements that it had to be invested in a business, so people formed a company, bought a house and leased it to themselves. So the politicians upped the $$ requirement, but that leads to different problems. People with $100M in cash are often not very nice citizens - do you want to give Col Qaddafi, Kim Jung whoever, etc a US visa if they bring $100M of their people's money with them? How many of their family/ friends/ associates also get a visa?
        elai 16y ago
        People with $100mm could buy their visa by making a unprofitable business and come in on the immigrant investor visa anyway. Or get a US friend to create a company where they have veto powers and come over on an L-1A and get their green card in 2-3 years due to no labor certification or waiting list. And their spouse can work also on a L-2 visa when they apply with him. Someone who has made a $100million could also get an O visa. Your a pretty remarkable person if you've made $100 million. Also if you have $100 million and don't setup your income to be indirect through companies and such, the USA taxes all international income, even if you've never lived or set foot in the US for years, and has an expat tax if you give up your green card or citizenship explicitly made for rich people. The usa is the only country in the world to do this and makes it unattractive to actually get a citizenship from them if your wealthy. You can still do business and profit from the country quite well without being a citizen and at that level you could do business in the country part time coming in on B-2 visas. The consulate would have no problem giving you a 10 year multiple entry B-2 visa since you have a very very very low illegal immigration risk.
      - muzz 16y ago
        The rich can already invest from outside the country-- capital flows freely across our borders.
- wisty 16y ago
  I think it should be $10,000 in profit (to be comparable with $100k in investment). It would be easy to fake (your mum buys a copy of your corporate edition product), but so is $100,000 in raw sales - just buy and sell lots of hardware for a tiny margin. Unintended consequences .... Still, at least it's low enough that many good startups won't have to fake it.
- SteveC 16y ago
  Is that $100,000 per year or $100,000 over the lifetime of the business?
ojbyrne 16y ago
All I can say is I find category 2 - Workers on an H-1B visa, or graduates from U.S. universities in science, technology, engineering, mathematics, or computer science—if they have an annual income of at least $30,000 or assets of at least $60,000 and have had a U.S. investor commit investment of at least $20,000 in their venture. Two years later, the startup must have created three new American jobs and either have raised over $100,000 in financing or be generating more than $100,000 in yearly revenue on a strictly personal basis, umm, droolworthy.
- blizkreeg 16y ago
  Droolworthy indeed! This point completely took me by surprise. For so many of us stuck in immigration limbo, this should make taking a leap well within reach. I was always of the opinion that there are thousands of talented could-be-entrepreneurs (grad students et al) in our own backyard who have no way to start a company. There had to be a way to make it easy for them, without reliance on employer visas and green cards.
  - recoiledsnake 16y ago
    Maybe they should try to get rid of immigration limbo. The quota numbers are laughable and the rule that no country should get more than 7% per year is even worse. See Employment based section at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_residence_(United_States)#Immigration_eligibility_and_quotas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_residence_(United_Sta... Since pending immigrants can't vote, I guess no one cares.
    - blizkreeg 16y ago
      Yes, of course. That is the root of the problem. This bill is a good effort to augment legal immigration reform.
    - ericd 16y ago
      I would imagine that the quotas are to make sure that no single secondary culture becomes dominant in the US and creates a split culture. It's harder to culturally assimilate many from one culture than a few from each of many cultures. Immigration without any limits could be very bad for the long term health and stability of the country. I think they should tack on a points system like Canada's to help the most qualified get into the country. Letting grad students stay without hassle is, in my opinion, a no brainer. Universities are far better judges of merit than the INS.
tomjen3 16y ago
The only problem with this is the requirement that it has to generate jobs - there are so many ways this can cause a small business to fail that are outside the control of those who are running it. That is in addition to all the ways a business can fail without employees. All it really takes is that you overlook a little provision or somebody gets mad and sue because you didn't hire them and they turned out to be some minority that was protected. Even if you win the suit most likely your business is already done for and you lose everything. The fact that legislation like this is cause for celebration is the measurement of how far the US has fallen.
- HistoryInAction 16y ago
  It's an OR requirement within the bill. Jobs is one way to convert the visa into a green card within 2 years, but it's not the only way. EDIT: Corin_ is right, and I was working off of the old bill, which had jobs as an OR. Interesting that this change was made, probably to sell it more effectively on the Hill.
  - corin_ 16y ago
    Actually, according to TC's summary (I haven't read the exact proposal yet), the OR requirements are all regarding "raised new financing OR bringing in a certain amount of revenue". Creating jobs is an AND requirement in each of the three options. Edit: Have now bothered to read the actual press release, TC's list of the three options was almost exactly copied word for word. So yeah, job creation within two years is a must, not an option.
dreamux 16y ago
I look forward to contributing to the American economy if this passes.
DanielRibeiro 16y ago
And just six days before YC S 2011 application deadline. Will probably encourage many people to apply.
HistoryInAction 16y ago
The press release can be found here: http://kerry.senate.gov/press/release/?id=4e6a51f6-fb2b-4212-b299-b0c46c7e6b58 http://kerry.senate.gov/press/release/?id=4e6a51f6-fb2b-4212...
stefanobernardi 16y ago
I just WISH we had such politicians in my country. It is just mind blowing to me that a politician actually took the time to read a TC article and modify a bill accordingly.
- whakojacko 16y ago
  Hell, I'm American and its still mind-blowing to me that a politician actually took the time to read a TC article and modify a bill accordingly.
  - tghnjtghn 16y ago
    It's still mind-blowing to me that a politician could read!
- iamelgringo 16y ago
  Votizen has been doing a lot of the political push on the startup visa issue. And, there's a number of big super angel/VC names that are attached to the movement as well. A lot of those guys are pretty connected. I'm sure that helped.
  - jbooth 16y ago
    Eh, this is 100% on Lugar's office and Kerry's office being awesome. "Pretty connected" in Silicon Valley means crap-all in the senate when you have 2 senators from Idaho.
egor83 16y ago
A senator takes blogger's opinion into account and revises the legislation? That's how a democracy should work. I'm really impressed (and the revised conditions seem very reasonable, too).
- HistoryInAction 16y ago
  Bob Litan of Kauffman has been pushing hard for the changes, and Kauffman has the connections to affect the policy. I imagine that had a lot to do with it, too.
HistoryInAction 16y ago
Check out the Votizen page to send your support to Congress: https://www.votizen.com/issues/startupvisa/ https://www.votizen.com/issues/startupvisa/
recoiledsnake 16y ago
Well, there were naysayers saying Vivek was just saying this to keep himself in the news and what he writes is useless, he keeps repeating the same thing etc. etc. and got some nice upvoting on here too. Interesting what their take on this would be. See these two threads. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2294552 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2294552 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2294385 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2294385
noelsequeira 16y ago
I'm an Indian entrepreneur, and much as I'd love to see #3 see the light of day, I have this sinking feeling it's just way too ripe for exploitation. Foreign entrepreneurs whose business has generated at least $100,000 in sales from the U.S. Two years later, the startup must have created three new American jobs and either have raised over $100,000 in financing or be generating more than $100,000 in yearly revenue. A ton of companies that aren't really startups could easily misuse this clause. And even if there's fine print to guard against the same, due diligence in each case will translate into a ton of paperwork and enormous bureaucratic delays, which is exactly what we're trying to avoid in the first place, right? That said, no one hopes I'm wrong more than I do right now.
- HistoryInAction 16y ago
  What are some ways that this clause could be misused? I'll pass these examples along.
  - noelsequeira 16y ago
    The answer depends largely on intent (is the bill meant to be exclusively for startups or are the terms more inclusive) and consequently, on how you define a 'startup'. Let's assume a hypothetical company in operation for 15 years outside the US with > 100000$ in revenue from the US market. 3 American hires now effectively represent an immediate ticket to a Visa for the founders. If I might hazard a guess, there'll be thousands of companies clamoring for a piece of the pie. If this is intended for, I stand corrected (and I must add I think the bill is revolutionary). But 'Startup' Visa might then be a bit of a misnomer.
    - gridspy 16y ago
      If the founders are working in their own company, contributing to the local economy, is this really a problem for the U.S?
      - noelsequeira 16y ago
JCB_K 16y ago
On the hand one I love this. On the other hand, this means it's going to be harder for a startup scene to take off in any European city.
- tghnjtghn 16y ago
  It's going to hit Vancouver - the place is currently full of startup people that couldn't get US visas
  - muzz 16y ago
    What notable startups have come out of this community in Vancouver?
    - tghnjtghn 16y ago
      What notable startups have come out of silicon valley in the last 10years? It's been a long time since HP, Apple, Sun appeared - a few people with a high traffic no income social web site doesn't make an industry however many $M/Bn it's notionally valued.
      - muzz 16y ago
        You made a claim that there were many startup people there, and I simply asked what notable startups have arised from that. It was a simple question, and the answer would have revealed concrete examples of which startups this country is missing out on because of a lack of a Startup Visa, and in this case, those would have been literally right across our borders! Your lack of examples would seem to indicate that the US wouldn't gain much from this purported community of startup types crossing the border.
- acgourley 16y ago
  Well, they'll just have to up their game. And hopefully, they will.
- shithead 16y ago
  Yeah, because we're all panting to be poked and groped like cattle by perverts at US airports.
corin_ 16y ago
When asked six weeks ago whether the Yuri Milner / SV Angel offers would affect which startups YC accepts, pg said "No, of course not." I would imagine that, if this legislation does pass, it might change his answer to that question, as all of a sudden that extra $150k becomes the difference between foreigners being able to get a Startup Visa to be accepted into YC or not. If you read this Paul, care to share any updated thoughts on how this legislation and the $150k offer will/won't impact who you can accept to YC, and possibly who will apply to YC?
- iamelgringo 16y ago
  Or, if you have decent product, team, traction, pitch and social proof, you can apply to Angel List, and pick up the investment. Come to the area on a tourist visa, hang out at local meetups like 106 miles or Hackers & Founders, and we'll try to get you guys plugged into the scene. Hopefully, you'll make enough connections that if and when you have to go back, you'll be able to have enough connections to raise an angel round, get a visa and move.
  - hippich 16y ago
    If only getting tourist visa was so easy for everyone =))
    - patrickk 16y ago
      There's 36 countries on the Visa Waiver Program, see if you qualify: http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html#countries http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html#... "The Visa Waiver Program (VWP) enables nationals of 36 participating countries to travel to the United States for tourism or business (visitor [B] visa purposes only) for stays of 90 days or less without obtaining a visa. The program was established to eliminate unnecessary barriers to travel, stimulating the tourism industry, and permitting the Department of State to focus consular resources in other areas. "
      - sireat 16y ago
iamelgringo 16y ago
I've been _soooo_ frustrated by this, running http://www.hackersandfounders.com http://www.hackersandfounders.com . I can't tell you how many amazing entrepreneurs I've seen come into the area, and then have to leave because of visa issues. So, even though I'm way oversubscribed right, now, I'm burning a bit of bandwidth on the startup visa movement. Votizen (I have no attachment other than knowing the founders) is coming up with a crazy cool platform to mobilize people about this issue. Just text "startupvisa" to 894546. They've build a hella cool twilio app, that texts you back, verifies that you are a registered voter in the US. If you are, they_print_out_your_text_message and hand carry it to your senators and representative in congress. It's friggin genius. Please, pass the word. Hell. I'll start another thread specifically for this. If you are a voting US citizen: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2324232 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2324232 If you are a foreign entrepreneur who wants to get a visa to the US, please help us promote this issue, so you can get a visa. Craig Montuori set up a tumblr to tell stories of Entrepreneurs that haven't been able to start companies in the US because of visa issues. Contact him at http://startupvisa.tumblr.com/ http://startupvisa.tumblr.com/, or cmontuori@gmail.com .
- HistoryInAction 16y ago
  Thanks :)
- tptacek 16y ago
  How exactly does the message delivery work?
  - HistoryInAction 16y ago
    The details are proprietary, so I don't know them. Having used the system, you validate your identity through sending the Votizen system your last name, city, and zip, which also identifies your specific elected officials to contact.
  - iamelgringo 16y ago
    Back and forth between you and votizen, is text messages. They ask you for your name and zip code, and if you're a registered voter. They verify that with voter registraion databases. Then, if you are a registered voter, they tell you who your representative and senators are, and then they hand carry a print out of your support to the physical offices of those senators and representatives. The last mile of the message delivery is in meat space, foot work.
mhlakhani 16y ago
Definitely looking forward to this one too, for personal reasons. Especially the second category.
ck2 16y ago
Help me understand this? Is there a shortage of startups in the USA? Can startups (that in reality have an online-only product) not occur outside the USA? These are honest questions, I'm trying not to be biased, why come here?
- PostOnce 16y ago
  Easier to obtain capital, easier to obtain additional talent, easier to obtain tools/tech/expertise. The market a startup wants to enter here may not even exist in their country. Also, depending on where you are from, taxes may be less harsh, laws more understandable, our market is large (300 million), etc; the outlook is just brighter.
- corin_ 16y ago
  There doesn't have to be a shortage of startups, nor does it need to be impossible for startups to exist outside the country, for it to be in America's best interest to help bring more startups in. People who go into America on this visa won't be a burden on American tax payers, and if they fail to succeed then their visa will expire. If, on the other hand, they succeed, whether in making a profitable five-person company, or in creating the next Facebook-sized success, then their being in America is a good thing for the country's economy. Basically it's a no-lose possible-win situation.
- recoiledsnake 16y ago
  I really fail to understand this line of thinking. >Is there a shortage of startups in the USA? What harm will an additional 1000 startups do, even if they fail? Fill the Whitepages and Yellowpages and make it heavy when you have to carry it inside your home? Look at the upside. Even a few successful ones(esp. big ones) can more than make up for the failures. >Can startups (that in reality have an online-only product) not occur outside the USA? Things are more conducive in the USA. So the same people may not be able to start and succeed elsewhere. Online only etc. doesn't matter. There will be too many obstacles like tax laws, payment methods and what not.
  - muzz 16y ago
drc 16y ago
Very exciting. However remember this is the an initial step in a long road of many steps - See this info-graph for an articulation of the legislative steps needed to make law: http://www.mikewirthart.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/howlawsmadeWIRTH2.jpg http://www.mikewirthart.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/howla...
olivercameron 16y ago
This is fantastic news. I'm here in San Francisco on a three year E-2 visa, and this should simplify things a ton when the time comes to renew it.
bigbang 16y ago
Did the bill pass already? The article is not clear atleast to me, since it mentions "draft of the bill".
- HistoryInAction 16y ago
  No, the bill was introduced last year and failed to have any action taken on it. This is the reintroduction, basically the very first step of a many-step process to become law.
nikhilalmeida 16y ago
Awesomesauce.... This makes it much more likely that I will take the plunge...
crux_ 16y ago
Doesn't this give investors a rather disproportionate amount of negotiating power, particularly for the 2nd round? "Agree to our terms ... or lose your visa!"
- blizkreeg 16y ago
  Not really. Except for the first category, it's 100K in financing. Not penny change, but not a big amount either. Of course, you can also generate 100K in revenue (two years is plenty enough time to get there) and then financing isn't a requirement.
  - crux_ 16y ago
    100K in financing that must come from a US-based VC/angel, no friends-and-family fundraising or personal savings allowed. That 100K is going to be rather more costly to acquire than you think.
- ssp 16y ago
  They already have almost the same leverage: "Agree to our terms ... or lose your business". Competition among investors would probably prevent this from becoming a big issue.
  - crux_ 16y ago
    Why is that anything close to "the same"? Example: a 3-person $400k-revenue business a year and a half old would normally be able negotiate with investors from a position of great strength, because they can painlessly walk away from a deal -- if they're talking to investors at all! Same situation, only with founder(s) on a startup visa? They'll be going hat-in-hand for 6mo from VC to VC with no choice but to close a deal. The only competition will be between the VCs to find the one who screws them over the least. Further: There's a great deal less "competition among investors" written into the bill. Foreign capital does not count, nor does friend/family money, nor do strategic partnerships that include capital investments -- the only investment that will keep you in the country is US VC investment.
trustfundbaby 16y ago
It makes way too much sense. Somebody is going to have to ruin some part of it for it to pass. Yes I'm cynical. I've lived here too long.
marcamillion 16y ago
Wow....there is a lot of hyperbole generated on Techcrunch but this post is spot-on. If this bill had been passed while I was still in the US, it definitely would have convinced me to stay. The truth is, that if it is passed, I just might be inclined to go back - under the third category. We will see what materializes though. This could be pretty interesting either way.
- betolive 16y ago
  Agree! pretty interesting times are coming... I had to leave 7 months ago because I wanted to focus on my startup and I was not able to do it with my H1 job, the discussion ahead related to this topic is worth watching
pclark 16y ago
It seems somewhat strange if a degree is required for the startup visa - is that the case?
voxmatt 16y ago
This is so crucially important. Even for an avid follower of politics, it's astounding how something like this can get bogged down in partisan politics.
samstokes 16y ago
Anyone know whether the Startup Visa will allow dual intent - i.e. if you pass the "remain in the country" criteria can you apply for a green card?
plainOldText 16y ago
Does anyone know how long will it take to find out if the bill passes or not?
- trustfundbaby 16y ago
  def pass_bill while bill_passed.eql?(false) && bill_dead.eql?(false) Get involved, drum up some buzz on its behalf Watch the news and immigration lawyer blogs end end
olivercameron 16y ago
If anyone needs advice on getting a long-term US visa without getting funding, feel free to email me (it's in my profile). It's currently an incredibly difficult process, but do-able.
jmspring 16y ago
I think the proposal is an interesting one. This really is one good step in cleaning up the issues with visas in this country. People that want to come here, start companies, and build the economy should be encouraged. Those that come for school, get an advanced degree and want to start something should be allowed to as well. What isn't clear to me would be a scenario, say, where two foreign nationals want to work together to start something under this proposed program, would they need 2x the numbers? Also, "three new American jobs", are those visa eligible or not? The second area I would like to see addressed is the whole of the H1-B process, specifically for "filling jobs where there is a shortage of talent". The economy is in the shitter and there are people qualified that are having a hard time finding things -- maybe due to age, location, or possibly needing to brush up on skill sets. I don't know what the right approach here is, but it really needs to be cleaned up to encourage training and hiring of those not needing a visa. I've worked with many of the job-shops (Wipro, GlobalLogic, etc) where the amount being paid for "talent" often was much higher than what hiring locally would cost with similar or worse quality. Balance is needed. This proposal is a great start and maybe adopting something like the Canadian point system would be an interesting follow up for the non-entrepeneurial crowd.
deskamess 16y ago
If you have met the employment/revenue standards after 2 years, do you qualify for a startup visa renewal or a green card?
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
gersh 16y ago
I assume the idea is to create American jobs. So, couldn't you just require the company to have so many US citizens on their payroll at a certain minimum salary.
ylem 16y ago
What about J1 visa holders? A number of people come in to universities and national labs from abroad on these...It's already a great step--if J1 holders were added, it would be even better.
hopstar 16y ago
If only other countries would follow suit. Afew years ago I had a great plan in place for an internet cafe (and more) planned for a great location in Grenada, and was basically told that I needed close to $300k in assets and/or financing in order to qualify for residency and make it happen. The entire project could have gotten off the ground for less than $200k (for which I had good faith agreements), and my plan involved hiring at least 3 locals to start with, so why did I need the other $100k? "Just because..." was pretty much the only answer that the immigration officials could give me. Oh well, it was a great 9 month vacation while it lasted...
Prasannav 16y ago
Finally ... hopefully it will work .. will certainly be a breather for many of us outside the US ....
_debug_ 16y ago
This is way too sensible to become true in the U.S. Next.
known 16y ago
I hope inviting immigrants/investors will neutralize outsourcing
tiabasnk 16y ago
I am rooting for this legislation to get approved. It would be a very big boost to many would-be entrepreneurs
dimitri_w 16y ago
This is really a good thing. Especially for Europeans like me who are seeking for Silicon Valley investment the limited H-1B visa and the high demands for initial funding have been kind of a barrier hardly to be overcome. The ranges now really encourage also foreign entrepreneurs to work on their ideas and that should add some value to both parties, the entrepreneur and the US.

329 points by joshbert 16y ago

Foreign entrepreneurs whose business has generated at least $100,000 in sales from the U.S. Now that's more like it! If US consumers are sending lots of dollars out of the country, it makes sense to bring those entrepreneurs into the country and keep the dollars at home. Not all of us need funding so this proviso could help us out without having to go looking for arbitrary angel cash.

tomjen3 16y ago
Wouldn't it makes sense to get those who sell outside the US even more? that could potentially get the trade deficient back to zero, which this measure won't.
- tghnjtghn 16y ago
  Most of the monetary requirements are to stop scams - ie where millionaire's kid bills family company abroad for $100K and gets to stay in the US running his company. It's also the reason for requiring qualified investors - to stop this just being family money recycled. Although it is a bit silly that if you invented say a malaria vaccine and had a $Bn in foreign sales you would be deported!
  - huherto 16y ago
    IMHO, it is in the best interest of the US to let rich people in. They have a big potential to invest or consume.
    - tghnjtghn 16y ago
      Depends on what you mean by 'rich' - $1M, $10M, $1Bn ? There have been classes of investment visa for people bringing $1M into the country. But then people simply used it to buy a house = $1M in some areas. So then there were requirements that it had to be invested in a business, so people formed a company, bought a house and leased it to themselves. So the politicians upped the $$ requirement, but that leads to different problems. People with $100M in cash are often not very nice citizens - do you want to give Col Qaddafi, Kim Jung whoever, etc a US visa if they bring $100M of their people's money with them? How many of their family/ friends/ associates also get a visa?
      - elai 16y ago
        People with $100mm could buy their visa by making a unprofitable business and come in on the immigrant investor visa anyway. Or get a US friend to create a company where they have veto powers and come over on an L-1A and get their green card in 2-3 years due to no labor certification or waiting list. And their spouse can work also on a L-2 visa when they apply with him. Someone who has made a $100million could also get an O visa. Your a pretty remarkable person if you've made $100 million. Also if you have $100 million and don't setup your income to be indirect through companies and such, the USA taxes all international income, even if you've never lived or set foot in the US for years, and has an expat tax if you give up your green card or citizenship explicitly made for rich people. The usa is the only country in the world to do this and makes it unattractive to actually get a citizenship from them if your wealthy. You can still do business and profit from the country quite well without being a citizen and at that level you could do business in the country part time coming in on B-2 visas. The consulate would have no problem giving you a 10 year multiple entry B-2 visa since you have a very very very low illegal immigration risk.
    - muzz 16y ago
      The rich can already invest from outside the country-- capital flows freely across our borders.
wisty 16y ago
I think it should be $10,000 in profit (to be comparable with $100k in investment). It would be easy to fake (your mum buys a copy of your corporate edition product), but so is $100,000 in raw sales - just buy and sell lots of hardware for a tiny margin. Unintended consequences .... Still, at least it's low enough that many good startups won't have to fake it.
SteveC 16y ago
Is that $100,000 per year or $100,000 over the lifetime of the business?

ojbyrne 16y ago

All I can say is I find category 2 - Workers on an H-1B visa, or graduates from U.S. universities in science, technology, engineering, mathematics, or computer science—if they have an annual income of at least $30,000 or assets of at least $60,000 and have had a U.S. investor commit investment of at least $20,000 in their venture. Two years later, the startup must have created three new American jobs and either have raised over $100,000 in financing or be generating more than $100,000 in yearly revenue on a strictly personal basis, umm, droolworthy.

blizkreeg 16y ago
Droolworthy indeed! This point completely took me by surprise. For so many of us stuck in immigration limbo, this should make taking a leap well within reach. I was always of the opinion that there are thousands of talented could-be-entrepreneurs (grad students et al) in our own backyard who have no way to start a company. There had to be a way to make it easy for them, without reliance on employer visas and green cards.
- recoiledsnake 16y ago
  Maybe they should try to get rid of immigration limbo. The quota numbers are laughable and the rule that no country should get more than 7% per year is even worse. See Employment based section at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_residence_(United_States)#Immigration_eligibility_and_quotas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_residence_(United_Sta... Since pending immigrants can't vote, I guess no one cares.
  - blizkreeg 16y ago
    Yes, of course. That is the root of the problem. This bill is a good effort to augment legal immigration reform.
  - ericd 16y ago
    I would imagine that the quotas are to make sure that no single secondary culture becomes dominant in the US and creates a split culture. It's harder to culturally assimilate many from one culture than a few from each of many cultures. Immigration without any limits could be very bad for the long term health and stability of the country. I think they should tack on a points system like Canada's to help the most qualified get into the country. Letting grad students stay without hassle is, in my opinion, a no brainer. Universities are far better judges of merit than the INS.

tomjen3 16y ago

The only problem with this is the requirement that it has to generate jobs - there are so many ways this can cause a small business to fail that are outside the control of those who are running it. That is in addition to all the ways a business can fail without employees. All it really takes is that you overlook a little provision or somebody gets mad and sue because you didn't hire them and they turned out to be some minority that was protected. Even if you win the suit most likely your business is already done for and you lose everything. The fact that legislation like this is cause for celebration is the measurement of how far the US has fallen.

HistoryInAction 16y ago
It's an OR requirement within the bill. Jobs is one way to convert the visa into a green card within 2 years, but it's not the only way. EDIT: Corin_ is right, and I was working off of the old bill, which had jobs as an OR. Interesting that this change was made, probably to sell it more effectively on the Hill.
- corin_ 16y ago
  Actually, according to TC's summary (I haven't read the exact proposal yet), the OR requirements are all regarding "raised new financing OR bringing in a certain amount of revenue". Creating jobs is an AND requirement in each of the three options. Edit: Have now bothered to read the actual press release, TC's list of the three options was almost exactly copied word for word. So yeah, job creation within two years is a must, not an option.

dreamux 16y ago

I look forward to contributing to the American economy if this passes.

DanielRibeiro 16y ago

And just six days before YC S 2011 application deadline. Will probably encourage many people to apply.

HistoryInAction 16y ago

The press release can be found here: http://kerry.senate.gov/press/release/?id=4e6a51f6-fb2b-4212-b299-b0c46c7e6b58 http://kerry.senate.gov/press/release/?id=4e6a51f6-fb2b-4212...

stefanobernardi 16y ago

I just WISH we had such politicians in my country. It is just mind blowing to me that a politician actually took the time to read a TC article and modify a bill accordingly.

whakojacko 16y ago
Hell, I'm American and its still mind-blowing to me that a politician actually took the time to read a TC article and modify a bill accordingly.
- tghnjtghn 16y ago
  It's still mind-blowing to me that a politician could read!
iamelgringo 16y ago
Votizen has been doing a lot of the political push on the startup visa issue. And, there's a number of big super angel/VC names that are attached to the movement as well. A lot of those guys are pretty connected. I'm sure that helped.
- jbooth 16y ago
  Eh, this is 100% on Lugar's office and Kerry's office being awesome. "Pretty connected" in Silicon Valley means crap-all in the senate when you have 2 senators from Idaho.

egor83 16y ago

A senator takes blogger's opinion into account and revises the legislation? That's how a democracy should work. I'm really impressed (and the revised conditions seem very reasonable, too).

HistoryInAction 16y ago
Bob Litan of Kauffman has been pushing hard for the changes, and Kauffman has the connections to affect the policy. I imagine that had a lot to do with it, too.

HistoryInAction 16y ago

Check out the Votizen page to send your support to Congress: https://www.votizen.com/issues/startupvisa/ https://www.votizen.com/issues/startupvisa/

recoiledsnake 16y ago

Well, there were naysayers saying Vivek was just saying this to keep himself in the news and what he writes is useless, he keeps repeating the same thing etc. etc. and got some nice upvoting on here too. Interesting what their take on this would be. See these two threads. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2294552 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2294552 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2294385 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2294385

noelsequeira 16y ago

I'm an Indian entrepreneur, and much as I'd love to see #3 see the light of day, I have this sinking feeling it's just way too ripe for exploitation. Foreign entrepreneurs whose business has generated at least $100,000 in sales from the U.S. Two years later, the startup must have created three new American jobs and either have raised over $100,000 in financing or be generating more than $100,000 in yearly revenue. A ton of companies that aren't really startups could easily misuse this clause. And even if there's fine print to guard against the same, due diligence in each case will translate into a ton of paperwork and enormous bureaucratic delays, which is exactly what we're trying to avoid in the first place, right? That said, no one hopes I'm wrong more than I do right now.

HistoryInAction 16y ago
What are some ways that this clause could be misused? I'll pass these examples along.
- noelsequeira 16y ago
  The answer depends largely on intent (is the bill meant to be exclusively for startups or are the terms more inclusive) and consequently, on how you define a 'startup'. Let's assume a hypothetical company in operation for 15 years outside the US with > 100000$ in revenue from the US market. 3 American hires now effectively represent an immediate ticket to a Visa for the founders. If I might hazard a guess, there'll be thousands of companies clamoring for a piece of the pie. If this is intended for, I stand corrected (and I must add I think the bill is revolutionary). But 'Startup' Visa might then be a bit of a misnomer.
  - gridspy 16y ago
    If the founders are working in their own company, contributing to the local economy, is this really a problem for the U.S?
    - noelsequeira 16y ago

JCB_K 16y ago

On the hand one I love this. On the other hand, this means it's going to be harder for a startup scene to take off in any European city.

tghnjtghn 16y ago
It's going to hit Vancouver - the place is currently full of startup people that couldn't get US visas
- muzz 16y ago
  What notable startups have come out of this community in Vancouver?
  - tghnjtghn 16y ago
    What notable startups have come out of silicon valley in the last 10years? It's been a long time since HP, Apple, Sun appeared - a few people with a high traffic no income social web site doesn't make an industry however many $M/Bn it's notionally valued.
    - muzz 16y ago
      You made a claim that there were many startup people there, and I simply asked what notable startups have arised from that. It was a simple question, and the answer would have revealed concrete examples of which startups this country is missing out on because of a lack of a Startup Visa, and in this case, those would have been literally right across our borders! Your lack of examples would seem to indicate that the US wouldn't gain much from this purported community of startup types crossing the border.
acgourley 16y ago
Well, they'll just have to up their game. And hopefully, they will.
shithead 16y ago
Yeah, because we're all panting to be poked and groped like cattle by perverts at US airports.

corin_ 16y ago

When asked six weeks ago whether the Yuri Milner / SV Angel offers would affect which startups YC accepts, pg said "No, of course not." I would imagine that, if this legislation does pass, it might change his answer to that question, as all of a sudden that extra $150k becomes the difference between foreigners being able to get a Startup Visa to be accepted into YC or not. If you read this Paul, care to share any updated thoughts on how this legislation and the $150k offer will/won't impact who you can accept to YC, and possibly who will apply to YC?

iamelgringo 16y ago
Or, if you have decent product, team, traction, pitch and social proof, you can apply to Angel List, and pick up the investment. Come to the area on a tourist visa, hang out at local meetups like 106 miles or Hackers & Founders, and we'll try to get you guys plugged into the scene. Hopefully, you'll make enough connections that if and when you have to go back, you'll be able to have enough connections to raise an angel round, get a visa and move.
- hippich 16y ago
  If only getting tourist visa was so easy for everyone =))
  - patrickk 16y ago
    There's 36 countries on the Visa Waiver Program, see if you qualify: http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html#countries http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html#... "The Visa Waiver Program (VWP) enables nationals of 36 participating countries to travel to the United States for tourism or business (visitor [B] visa purposes only) for stays of 90 days or less without obtaining a visa. The program was established to eliminate unnecessary barriers to travel, stimulating the tourism industry, and permitting the Department of State to focus consular resources in other areas. "
    - sireat 16y ago

iamelgringo 16y ago

I've been _soooo_ frustrated by this, running http://www.hackersandfounders.com http://www.hackersandfounders.com . I can't tell you how many amazing entrepreneurs I've seen come into the area, and then have to leave because of visa issues. So, even though I'm way oversubscribed right, now, I'm burning a bit of bandwidth on the startup visa movement. Votizen (I have no attachment other than knowing the founders) is coming up with a crazy cool platform to mobilize people about this issue. Just text "startupvisa" to 894546. They've build a hella cool twilio app, that texts you back, verifies that you are a registered voter in the US. If you are, they_print_out_your_text_message and hand carry it to your senators and representative in congress. It's friggin genius. Please, pass the word. Hell. I'll start another thread specifically for this. If you are a voting US citizen: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2324232 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2324232 If you are a foreign entrepreneur who wants to get a visa to the US, please help us promote this issue, so you can get a visa. Craig Montuori set up a tumblr to tell stories of Entrepreneurs that haven't been able to start companies in the US because of visa issues. Contact him at http://startupvisa.tumblr.com/ http://startupvisa.tumblr.com/, or cmontuori@gmail.com .

HistoryInAction 16y ago
Thanks :)
tptacek 16y ago
How exactly does the message delivery work?
- HistoryInAction 16y ago
  The details are proprietary, so I don't know them. Having used the system, you validate your identity through sending the Votizen system your last name, city, and zip, which also identifies your specific elected officials to contact.
- iamelgringo 16y ago
  Back and forth between you and votizen, is text messages. They ask you for your name and zip code, and if you're a registered voter. They verify that with voter registraion databases. Then, if you are a registered voter, they tell you who your representative and senators are, and then they hand carry a print out of your support to the physical offices of those senators and representatives. The last mile of the message delivery is in meat space, foot work.

mhlakhani 16y ago

Definitely looking forward to this one too, for personal reasons. Especially the second category.

ck2 16y ago

Help me understand this? Is there a shortage of startups in the USA? Can startups (that in reality have an online-only product) not occur outside the USA? These are honest questions, I'm trying not to be biased, why come here?

PostOnce 16y ago
Easier to obtain capital, easier to obtain additional talent, easier to obtain tools/tech/expertise. The market a startup wants to enter here may not even exist in their country. Also, depending on where you are from, taxes may be less harsh, laws more understandable, our market is large (300 million), etc; the outlook is just brighter.
corin_ 16y ago
There doesn't have to be a shortage of startups, nor does it need to be impossible for startups to exist outside the country, for it to be in America's best interest to help bring more startups in. People who go into America on this visa won't be a burden on American tax payers, and if they fail to succeed then their visa will expire. If, on the other hand, they succeed, whether in making a profitable five-person company, or in creating the next Facebook-sized success, then their being in America is a good thing for the country's economy. Basically it's a no-lose possible-win situation.
recoiledsnake 16y ago
I really fail to understand this line of thinking. >Is there a shortage of startups in the USA? What harm will an additional 1000 startups do, even if they fail? Fill the Whitepages and Yellowpages and make it heavy when you have to carry it inside your home? Look at the upside. Even a few successful ones(esp. big ones) can more than make up for the failures. >Can startups (that in reality have an online-only product) not occur outside the USA? Things are more conducive in the USA. So the same people may not be able to start and succeed elsewhere. Online only etc. doesn't matter. There will be too many obstacles like tax laws, payment methods and what not.
- muzz 16y ago

drc 16y ago

Very exciting. However remember this is the an initial step in a long road of many steps - See this info-graph for an articulation of the legislative steps needed to make law: http://www.mikewirthart.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/howlawsmadeWIRTH2.jpg http://www.mikewirthart.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/howla...

olivercameron 16y ago

This is fantastic news. I'm here in San Francisco on a three year E-2 visa, and this should simplify things a ton when the time comes to renew it.

bigbang 16y ago

Did the bill pass already? The article is not clear atleast to me, since it mentions "draft of the bill".

HistoryInAction 16y ago
No, the bill was introduced last year and failed to have any action taken on it. This is the reintroduction, basically the very first step of a many-step process to become law.

nikhilalmeida 16y ago

Awesomesauce.... This makes it much more likely that I will take the plunge...

crux_ 16y ago

Doesn't this give investors a rather disproportionate amount of negotiating power, particularly for the 2nd round? "Agree to our terms ... or lose your visa!"

blizkreeg 16y ago
Not really. Except for the first category, it's 100K in financing. Not penny change, but not a big amount either. Of course, you can also generate 100K in revenue (two years is plenty enough time to get there) and then financing isn't a requirement.
- crux_ 16y ago
  100K in financing that must come from a US-based VC/angel, no friends-and-family fundraising or personal savings allowed. That 100K is going to be rather more costly to acquire than you think.
ssp 16y ago
They already have almost the same leverage: "Agree to our terms ... or lose your business". Competition among investors would probably prevent this from becoming a big issue.
- crux_ 16y ago
  Why is that anything close to "the same"? Example: a 3-person $400k-revenue business a year and a half old would normally be able negotiate with investors from a position of great strength, because they can painlessly walk away from a deal -- if they're talking to investors at all! Same situation, only with founder(s) on a startup visa? They'll be going hat-in-hand for 6mo from VC to VC with no choice but to close a deal. The only competition will be between the VCs to find the one who screws them over the least. Further: There's a great deal less "competition among investors" written into the bill. Foreign capital does not count, nor does friend/family money, nor do strategic partnerships that include capital investments -- the only investment that will keep you in the country is US VC investment.

trustfundbaby 16y ago

It makes way too much sense. Somebody is going to have to ruin some part of it for it to pass. Yes I'm cynical. I've lived here too long.

marcamillion 16y ago

Wow....there is a lot of hyperbole generated on Techcrunch but this post is spot-on. If this bill had been passed while I was still in the US, it definitely would have convinced me to stay. The truth is, that if it is passed, I just might be inclined to go back - under the third category. We will see what materializes though. This could be pretty interesting either way.

betolive 16y ago
Agree! pretty interesting times are coming... I had to leave 7 months ago because I wanted to focus on my startup and I was not able to do it with my H1 job, the discussion ahead related to this topic is worth watching

pclark 16y ago

It seems somewhat strange if a degree is required for the startup visa - is that the case?

voxmatt 16y ago

This is so crucially important. Even for an avid follower of politics, it's astounding how something like this can get bogged down in partisan politics.

samstokes 16y ago

Anyone know whether the Startup Visa will allow dual intent - i.e. if you pass the "remain in the country" criteria can you apply for a green card?

plainOldText 16y ago

Does anyone know how long will it take to find out if the bill passes or not?

trustfundbaby 16y ago
def pass_bill while bill_passed.eql?(false) && bill_dead.eql?(false) Get involved, drum up some buzz on its behalf Watch the news and immigration lawyer blogs end end

olivercameron 16y ago

If anyone needs advice on getting a long-term US visa without getting funding, feel free to email me (it's in my profile). It's currently an incredibly difficult process, but do-able.

jmspring 16y ago

I think the proposal is an interesting one. This really is one good step in cleaning up the issues with visas in this country. People that want to come here, start companies, and build the economy should be encouraged. Those that come for school, get an advanced degree and want to start something should be allowed to as well. What isn't clear to me would be a scenario, say, where two foreign nationals want to work together to start something under this proposed program, would they need 2x the numbers? Also, "three new American jobs", are those visa eligible or not? The second area I would like to see addressed is the whole of the H1-B process, specifically for "filling jobs where there is a shortage of talent". The economy is in the shitter and there are people qualified that are having a hard time finding things -- maybe due to age, location, or possibly needing to brush up on skill sets. I don't know what the right approach here is, but it really needs to be cleaned up to encourage training and hiring of those not needing a visa. I've worked with many of the job-shops (Wipro, GlobalLogic, etc) where the amount being paid for "talent" often was much higher than what hiring locally would cost with similar or worse quality. Balance is needed. This proposal is a great start and maybe adopting something like the Canadian point system would be an interesting follow up for the non-entrepeneurial crowd.

deskamess 16y ago

If you have met the employment/revenue standards after 2 years, do you qualify for a startup visa renewal or a green card?

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

gersh 16y ago

I assume the idea is to create American jobs. So, couldn't you just require the company to have so many US citizens on their payroll at a certain minimum salary.

ylem 16y ago

What about J1 visa holders? A number of people come in to universities and national labs from abroad on these...It's already a great step--if J1 holders were added, it would be even better.

hopstar 16y ago

If only other countries would follow suit. Afew years ago I had a great plan in place for an internet cafe (and more) planned for a great location in Grenada, and was basically told that I needed close to $300k in assets and/or financing in order to qualify for residency and make it happen. The entire project could have gotten off the ground for less than $200k (for which I had good faith agreements), and my plan involved hiring at least 3 locals to start with, so why did I need the other $100k? "Just because..." was pretty much the only answer that the immigration officials could give me. Oh well, it was a great 9 month vacation while it lasted...

Prasannav 16y ago

Finally ... hopefully it will work .. will certainly be a breather for many of us outside the US ....

_debug_ 16y ago

This is way too sensible to become true in the U.S. Next.

known 16y ago

I hope inviting immigrants/investors will neutralize outsourcing

tiabasnk 16y ago

I am rooting for this legislation to get approved. It would be a very big boost to many would-be entrepreneurs

dimitri_w 16y ago

This is really a good thing. Especially for Europeans like me who are seeking for Silicon Valley investment the limited H-1B visa and the high demands for initial funding have been kind of a barrier hardly to be overcome. The ranges now really encourage also foreign entrepreneurs to work on their ideas and that should add some value to both parties, the entrepreneur and the US.