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One could say the same thing about a lot of conquerors including the Arab armies. For example, when the Arab armies conquered North Africa, it was one of the r

One could say the same thing about a lot of conquerors including the Arab armies. For example, when the Arab armies conquered North Africa, it was one of the richest and most developed areas in the Mediterranean. After the Arab conquest, it became a backwater and never achieved the prominence it had before. Also, in Egypt, the Great Pyramid was once covered with gleaming white limestone, but this was removed and used to build mosques. The pattern of civilization, destruction, new civilization is a repeating motif in history. Yes the Mongols caused a lot of destruction, but they also facilitated the East-West exchange of ideas and goods on a hithero unknown scale.

IkmoIkmo 6y ago
My understanding is quite different... north africa flourished for hundreds of years after the Arab conquest, particularly during the time of Andalusia which lasted almost 700 years. Even after, North Africa held quite some power from its pirating entities. It was very much a hub, controlling important sea routes. It wasn't until European colonialism that it really turned into a backwater and lost all prominence. At least that's my understanding from my historic readings.
- User23 6y ago
  > It was very much a hub, controlling important sea routes. That’s an interesting way of saying they were pirates and slavers who raided Europe and abducted slaves for centuries.
  - Mirioron 6y ago
    To add an interesting part about history: after the US became an independent nation US merchant vessels were not under the protection of the Royal Navy. This made US ships a good target for pirates from the Barbary States who would not only steal the cargo but enslave the crew (the pirates also raided European settlements near coasts for slaves). Because the US didn't have a navy at the time they decided to pay tribute to stop the attacks. At one point the US paid a fifth of its annual budget in tribute to the pirates. This led to the creation of a permanent US Navy and to the Barbary Wars. Now 200 years later the US Navy is a pretty powerful fighting force.
  - IkmoIkmo 6y ago
    Ah, like the sentence right before that which stated they were pirates? You think I referred to north africa holding power from its pirating entities as some kind of Disney movie piracy? Anyone who has any sense of piracy in a historical context knows they thieve, pillage, kill, rape, enslave. Besides, you say it as if the north african states uniquely employed slavery, this was a time of a giant slave trade by European countries in Africa, Asia and South America, if I'd have said the colonial Netherlands controlled important trade routes and trade hubs, would you have added the snarky comment as well?
ComputerGuru 6y ago
It’s extremely unlikely the limestone casing for the pyramids was still around at the time of the Caliphate. Do you have any sources for that? It wasn’t all that long ago, relatively speaking.
- nemo 6y ago
  There's a kernel of truth there. The limestone casing was destroyed by an earthquake in 1308. The rubble was repurposed for other building projects. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pyramid_of_Giza#Casing_stones https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pyramid_of_Giza#Casing_s...
nemo 6y ago
>in Egypt, the Great Pyramid was once covered with gleaming white limestone, but this was removed and used to build mosques This is a very misleading distortion of history. The limestone casing on the Great Pyramid was destroyed in an earthquake in 1308 CE. The limestone rubble was pulled from the base of the pyramid and repurposed for building though much of it was also burned in kilns for lime like the marble of many ancient buildings and temples from the ancient world all around the Mediterranean by people of many and various religions and nationalities. >When the Arab armies conquered North Africa, it was one of the richest and most developed areas in the Mediterranean. After the Arab conquest, it became a backwater and never achieved the prominence it had before. You really ought to read up on the Islamic Golden Age.
- Amezarak 6y ago
  This comes across a little patronizing. The poster is making the point that North Africa had been part of a civilized empire for centuries, and full of wealthy cities, some famous for their learning. Some of history’s greatest minds lived in Roman North Africa. These cities were conquered. Some were sacked and destroyed. There was major loss of life, economic destruction, and loss of property, including written works. The conquerors, at the time, did not much appreciate the value of what they were destroying. The fact that the region later somewhat recovered does not take away from the fact that, if we’re talking about setbacks for human progress, the early Muslim conquests were one. Yes, there was a great reawakening where the conquerors began to appreciate the legacy that remained, and began translating and building on the works that escaped their destruction. That doesn’t make the intervening period better. And certainly the poster is correct that cities like Alexandria and Carthage never again achieved their old prominence.
  - nemo 6y ago
    Your understanding of the region is not an accurate account. Not at all. There have been various sophisticated civilizations in the region, among them various Islamic states. The rises and falls of various sophisticated civilizations came about for a variety of reasons, most of which were prior to the Islamic world existing. The Islamic Golden Age brought Alexandria back from being a declining backwater with its schools closed by late Rome's Christian emperors to returning to a center of learning, one that helped preserve important classical texts that were lost in the West, esp in mathematics and the sciences, and where they were significantly further developed.
Alkhwarizmi 6y ago
Are you pulling this stuff out of thin air or do you have any legit source to back it up!?

IkmoIkmo 6y ago

My understanding is quite different... north africa flourished for hundreds of years after the Arab conquest, particularly during the time of Andalusia which lasted almost 700 years. Even after, North Africa held quite some power from its pirating entities. It was very much a hub, controlling important sea routes. It wasn't until European colonialism that it really turned into a backwater and lost all prominence. At least that's my understanding from my historic readings.

User23 6y ago
> It was very much a hub, controlling important sea routes. That’s an interesting way of saying they were pirates and slavers who raided Europe and abducted slaves for centuries.
- Mirioron 6y ago
  To add an interesting part about history: after the US became an independent nation US merchant vessels were not under the protection of the Royal Navy. This made US ships a good target for pirates from the Barbary States who would not only steal the cargo but enslave the crew (the pirates also raided European settlements near coasts for slaves). Because the US didn't have a navy at the time they decided to pay tribute to stop the attacks. At one point the US paid a fifth of its annual budget in tribute to the pirates. This led to the creation of a permanent US Navy and to the Barbary Wars. Now 200 years later the US Navy is a pretty powerful fighting force.
- IkmoIkmo 6y ago
  Ah, like the sentence right before that which stated they were pirates? You think I referred to north africa holding power from its pirating entities as some kind of Disney movie piracy? Anyone who has any sense of piracy in a historical context knows they thieve, pillage, kill, rape, enslave. Besides, you say it as if the north african states uniquely employed slavery, this was a time of a giant slave trade by European countries in Africa, Asia and South America, if I'd have said the colonial Netherlands controlled important trade routes and trade hubs, would you have added the snarky comment as well?

ComputerGuru 6y ago

It’s extremely unlikely the limestone casing for the pyramids was still around at the time of the Caliphate. Do you have any sources for that? It wasn’t all that long ago, relatively speaking.

nemo 6y ago
There's a kernel of truth there. The limestone casing was destroyed by an earthquake in 1308. The rubble was repurposed for other building projects. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pyramid_of_Giza#Casing_stones https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pyramid_of_Giza#Casing_s...

nemo 6y ago

>in Egypt, the Great Pyramid was once covered with gleaming white limestone, but this was removed and used to build mosques This is a very misleading distortion of history. The limestone casing on the Great Pyramid was destroyed in an earthquake in 1308 CE. The limestone rubble was pulled from the base of the pyramid and repurposed for building though much of it was also burned in kilns for lime like the marble of many ancient buildings and temples from the ancient world all around the Mediterranean by people of many and various religions and nationalities. >When the Arab armies conquered North Africa, it was one of the richest and most developed areas in the Mediterranean. After the Arab conquest, it became a backwater and never achieved the prominence it had before. You really ought to read up on the Islamic Golden Age.

Amezarak 6y ago
This comes across a little patronizing. The poster is making the point that North Africa had been part of a civilized empire for centuries, and full of wealthy cities, some famous for their learning. Some of history’s greatest minds lived in Roman North Africa. These cities were conquered. Some were sacked and destroyed. There was major loss of life, economic destruction, and loss of property, including written works. The conquerors, at the time, did not much appreciate the value of what they were destroying. The fact that the region later somewhat recovered does not take away from the fact that, if we’re talking about setbacks for human progress, the early Muslim conquests were one. Yes, there was a great reawakening where the conquerors began to appreciate the legacy that remained, and began translating and building on the works that escaped their destruction. That doesn’t make the intervening period better. And certainly the poster is correct that cities like Alexandria and Carthage never again achieved their old prominence.
- nemo 6y ago
  Your understanding of the region is not an accurate account. Not at all. There have been various sophisticated civilizations in the region, among them various Islamic states. The rises and falls of various sophisticated civilizations came about for a variety of reasons, most of which were prior to the Islamic world existing. The Islamic Golden Age brought Alexandria back from being a declining backwater with its schools closed by late Rome's Christian emperors to returning to a center of learning, one that helped preserve important classical texts that were lost in the West, esp in mathematics and the sciences, and where they were significantly further developed.

Alkhwarizmi 6y ago

Are you pulling this stuff out of thin air or do you have any legit source to back it up!?