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What a tragedy. Most westerners don't realize that when Europeans were living in mud huts and emptying their chamber pots into the streets, the Muslim world had
by deathgrips 6y ago
What a tragedy. Most westerners don't realize that when Europeans were living in mud huts and emptying their chamber pots into the streets, the Muslim world had plumbing, water filtration, surgery, advanced mathematics, and many more amazing scientific advances which quickly spread throughout Muslim countries due to the cultural exchange at Mecca. I wonder what the world could have been like if the Mongols had never destroyed so much civilization and progress.
- laingc 6y agoWait until you read about the Roman Republic thousands of years before this time - you’re gonna love it.
- cambalache 6y agoYeah but besides the sanitation system,the aqueduct, the roads, the irrigation system, medicine,oratory, law, historians, dramatists,Vitruvius..what did those lousy Romans have?
- lootsauce 6y agogreat Monty Python bit! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7tvauOJMHo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7tvauOJMHo
- donw 6y agoThey did invent chemical warfare: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garum
- gpm 6y ago1. Are you sure you linked to the right page? That looks to be a condiment. 2. Chemical warfare was used before the Romans, for instance, like that condiment, the greeks had it before them. (Though I don't believe the greeks invented it first either). For example, see this wikipedia article (which is really in need of some improvement) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_chemical_warfare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_chemical_warfare
- hnick 6y agoGarum is supposedly similar to south-east Asian fish sauce so as someone who can't stomach even regular seafood, let alone that horrible stuff, I'll stand by their humorous assessment :)
- DrScump 6y agoROMANES EUNT DOMUS
- ReverseCold 6y agoAnd the indus river valley civilization! They had a pretty advanced irrigation system.
- selimthegrim 6y agoThey used flood irrigation, more precisely - https://www.bbc.com/reel/video/p077x0m7/why-did-an-entire-civilisation-vanish- https://www.bbc.com/reel/video/p077x0m7/why-did-an-entire-ci... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilisation#Climate_change_and_drought https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilisation#Clim...
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y agoOne could say the same thing about a lot of conquerors including the Arab armies. For example, when the Arab armies conquered North Africa, it was one of the richest and most developed areas in the Mediterranean. After the Arab conquest, it became a backwater and never achieved the prominence it had before. Also, in Egypt, the Great Pyramid was once covered with gleaming white limestone, but this was removed and used to build mosques. The pattern of civilization, destruction, new civilization is a repeating motif in history. Yes the Mongols caused a lot of destruction, but they also facilitated the East-West exchange of ideas and goods on a hithero unknown scale.
- IkmoIkmo 6y agoMy understanding is quite different... north africa flourished for hundreds of years after the Arab conquest, particularly during the time of Andalusia which lasted almost 700 years. Even after, North Africa held quite some power from its pirating entities. It was very much a hub, controlling important sea routes. It wasn't until European colonialism that it really turned into a backwater and lost all prominence. At least that's my understanding from my historic readings.
- User23 6y ago> It was very much a hub, controlling important sea routes. That’s an interesting way of saying they were pirates and slavers who raided Europe and abducted slaves for centuries.
- Mirioron 6y agoTo add an interesting part about history: after the US became an independent nation US merchant vessels were not under the protection of the Royal Navy. This made US ships a good target for pirates from the Barbary States who would not only steal the cargo but enslave the crew (the pirates also raided European settlements near coasts for slaves). Because the US didn't have a navy at the time they decided to pay tribute to stop the attacks. At one point the US paid a fifth of its annual budget in tribute to the pirates. This led to the creation of a permanent US Navy and to the Barbary Wars. Now 200 years later the US Navy is a pretty powerful fighting force.
- Veen 6y ago> amazing scientific advances which quickly spread throughout Muslim countries due to the cultural exchange at Mecca A more important factor in their quick spread was the violent conquest of a huge swathe of the Middle East, North Africa, and part of Western Europe.
- Amezarak 6y agoAll those things existed in the Roman Empire, which extended into the Middle East, until the early Muslim conquests destroyed most of the Roman Empire and all of the Persian Empire, sending the Middle East into a minor dark age. Because the region had been extremely wealthy and advanced for centuries, with plenty of intra-Empire cultural exchange, itdid eventually recover. Most (not all) of the “advances” were translations of and commentaries on Greek/Roman and Persian works, and notably, most of them were from the pre-existing conquered strata population in pre-existing centers of learning. Of course, as time went on, people did build up higher, but the conquests were a major setback. So let’s not hype it up too much - where would the world be, if, as Gibbon wrote, Mohammed had died in the cradle, and all those people hadn’t been killed, books burned, and cities sacked? There’s no way to know - it might have been worse off in both cases.
- craftinator 6y agoBased on some quick back of the napkin calculations, we'd probably be facing severe overcrowding and famine; same as if Genghis Khan had been a stillborn.
- rayiner 6y agoI’m pretty sure I learned all that in high school (in Virginia, 20 years ago when it was still a red state).
- dsfyu404ed 6y agoAs someone who moved between red and blue states in high school I like to say that the blue states refuse to teach history and the red states refuse to teach science though history of the middle east isn't usually what I'm referring to.
- vondur 6y agoThe Eastern Romans had it too, as it never ceased to exist in the East. However, I don't think the original Muslim Arabs had any of those technologies, the states they conquered did. (Roman and Persian)
- mcv 6y agoConquering something doesn't mean you automatically get to keep it. Systems need to be maintained.
- thefounder 6y ago>> the Muslim world had plumbing, water filtration, surgery, advanced mathematics, and many more amazing scientific advance I wonder, why did they get stuck into the past still being ruled either by a monarch or some religious leader?
- daseiner1 6y agoresource curse, and all of its knock-on effects: ripe targets for resource extraction by foreign governments or multinationals (e.g. the offshoots of Standard Oil), said foreign entities will then support governments that abet their wealth extraction, which are typically governments whose mandate is not based on the will of the people even idealistically. said governments will return a portion of resource revenue to the people in the form of bread and circuses, to distract from how poorly their leaders serve them. saudi arabia had no taxes until only recently – if people are taxed, they’re likelier to be more critical of their government, and to demand representation https://www.ictd.ac/blog/tax-accountability-strengthen-links/ https://www.ictd.ac/blog/tax-accountability-strengthen-links...
- thefounder 6y agoWhat about Iran?
- deepnotderp 6y agoRome had most of that long ago. Some of their field surgery technology in particular was extremely advanced.
- foobar_ 6y agoThat is a barbaric lie. It's akin to Christians taking credit for the Greco-Roman civilisation. Completely backwards. Persia / Babylon / Sumer was one of the first advanced civilisations. Arabs have contributed nothing to civilisation in terms of anything and are pretty much like the mongols for their role in history.
- Cyph0n 6y agoSpeaking in absolutes like that without sources is a great approach... if you don’t want to be taken seriously, that is.
- foobar_ 6y agoIn which history book does it say that Saudi Arabia is the birthplace of civilisation and muslims had anything to do with it ? The OP was talking about advanced muslim civilisations when he obviously meant Persia, who were Zoroastrians. I use the word Persia to mean Iran / Iraq / Syria / Turkey and parts of central asia who were fairly advanced in the past and some are still advanced to this day. Muslims did not invent and make anything. Even the so called islamic golden age was a direct result of brain drain from Persia. Arab muslims and Persian muslims are wildly different. Iran has long maintained their pre-islamic language and culture. It was because of Iran's resistance to becoming Arab that any golden age was at all possible. This rivalry persists to this day in the islamic world as Saudi Arabia vs Iran vs Turkey. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamization_of_Iran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamization_of_Iran
- Cyph0n 6y ago> Muslims did not invent and make anything. Again with the absolutes, and again, no sources. You must be a great debater! I am not going to waste my time here ;)
- dang 6y agoWe've asked you repeatedly not to post flamebait to HN. If you keep doing it we will ban you. Religious and racial flamewar is particularly unwelcome here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- cscurmudgeon 6y agoSame thing happened in India. In fact, there was a lot of Indian influence on Islamic sciences. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_influence_on_Islamic_science https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_influence_on_Islamic_sc...) But unfortunately, more than just knowledge was exchanged. Imagine universities existing for hundreds of years, but promptly destroyed by invaders. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nalanda https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nalanda This pattern repeated throughout India for hundreds of years.
- 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 6y agoThe Europeans were emptying their chamber pots nearly 1000 years after the Greeks invented most major math theory and were sending water hundreds of miles on aqueducts.
- luckydata 6y agoEhm, plumbing is a bad example since the Romans did that WAY ahead of the Muslim world. For that AND sidewalks, you're welcome. Thanks for the numbers, that was handy.
- cortesoft 6y ago> you're welcome I am confused... are you an ancient Roman?
- luckydata 6y agoclose, I'm Italian.
- michaelscott 6y agoNot that close
- daseiner1 6y agoactually not close at all, if dude is really trying to be Mr. Ancient Rome, well, he’s likelier descended from the “savages” that sacked her than the ancient patricians who led her in glory
- luckydata 6y agowhy "likelier"? We had invasions and racial mixing like everywhere else in the mediterranean, but that was happening during roman times too. I'm actually more of a cisalpine gaul than a roman myself, but the beauty of the empire was that it was multi cultural and multi racial. Said that, Italians absolutely look like romans, this is a small example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdUPYm06gVc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdUPYm06gVc Our language is also the closest to the type of Latin romans spoke during the empire (which itself evolved). I do not understand why it's even controversial, you're making a dumb point.
- econcon 6y ago>the Muslim world had plumbing, water filtration, surgery, advanced mathematics, and many more amazing scientific advances A lot of which came through Indian traders, first evidences of human surgeries are found in Indian subcontinent, Indus valley civilization had pretty advance irrigation system for the time and mathematics: quadratic equations, notion of zero, notion of limits and inifinty were here in philosophical sense even if no one every applied it in mathematics. In the field of war strategy and material, like steel for sword - India was wayy ahead at its time. They knew about the steel temperament long before Europeans even started using steel for swords. "During the 6th Century BCE, an Indian physician named Sushruta – widely regarded in India as the 'father of surgery' – wrote one of the world's earliest works on medicine and surgery"
- newyankee 6y agoHell Arabic numerals are actually the Indian nos which trader Arabs exported to Europe. I find the characterisation that Arabs invented no system used in so many places so misleading. It is almost as if western historians do not want to give adequate acknowledgment to South Asia.
- drapred7 6y agoMedieval French village https://www.solosophie.com/medieval-town-of-dinan/ https://www.solosophie.com/medieval-town-of-dinan/ Modern Bagdad https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y2BD66C-W58 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y2BD66C-W58 I dont find any descriptions of specific surgeries here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicine_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicine_in_the_medieval_Isl...
- oh_sigh 6y agoThe Muslim world was on the decline from ~1100, before the Mongols were anything of note to them. Yes, the Mongols delivered the coup de grace though.
- dntbnmpls 6y ago> Most westerners don't realize that when Europeans were living in mud huts Mud huts? Rome was composed of mud hut? The tallest building in the world for almost the entire 2nd millenia was in england. Not exactly "mud huts". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_St_Paul%27s_Cathedral https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_St_Paul%27s_Cathedral https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Cathedral https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Cathedral https://www.businessinsider.com/here-are-the-tallest-buildings-throughout-history-2015-3 https://www.businessinsider.com/here-are-the-tallest-buildin... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_world%27s_tallest_buildings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_world%27s_talle... I think you are overselling the muslim world and underselling europe a bit. > the Muslim world had plumbing, water filtration, surgery, advanced mathematics, and many more amazing scientific advances which quickly spread throughout Muslim countries due to the cultural exchange at Mecca. Much of it brought to the muslim world by the roman empire and the greeks. Or from the indians/chinese/etc in the east. Of course there were muslim contributions but lets not get too carried away here. > I wonder what the world could have been like if the Mongols had never destroyed so much civilization and progress. The world would be exactly the way it was in the 1200s without the mongols. The muslim world had stagnated by the time the mongols came around. After all the arabic islamic golden age started in the 700s. The mongols destroy arabic islamic civilization but they helped create the turkic islamic civilization of the ottoman empire not to mention the persian centered khanates which went on to create mughal india. Without the mongols, we don't have the italian renaissance and modern europe and without modern europe we don't have modern civilization. The empire created by the mongols is why marco polo went east. It's also why christopher columbus set sail. Without the mongols, we don't have the new world. No doubt, the arab world suffered and lost out, but the world advanced immensely due to the mongols. The mongol empire was the first truly "global" empire. It helped europe bypass the muslim world and trade directly with india, china, etc.
- deathgrips 6y ago>Without the mongols, we don't have the italian renaissance and modern europe and without modern europe we don't have modern civilization. The empire created by the mongols is why marco polo went east. It's also why christopher columbus set sail. Without the mongols, we don't have the new world. I'll take whig historiography for $500, Alex.
- keiferski 6y agoWas this incendiary comment really necessary?
- Red_Tarsius 6y agoIslam actually slows down scientific progress. The golden age is nothing more than Muslims taking credit for the swan song of conquered cultures. If anything, Islamic culture might be the second worst thing that happened to the middle east after the Mongol invasion. There are many hypotheses as to why Muslim-majority countries produce a disproportionately small share of world scientific output even today. The following paper was an interesting read: https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/chaney/files/paper.pdf https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/chaney/files/paper.pdf >Most westerners don't realize that when Europeans were living in mud huts and emptying their chamber pots into the streets... North Europeans were more advanced than you're giving them credit for. Different biomes open up different strategies and possibilities. You can't expect a city like Rome – marble and all – in ancient Scandinavia. But we found samples of skilled craftsmanship (nebra sky disk, waldalgesheimer fürstengrab) that go against the cartoon narrative you described.
- dang 6y agoNo religious flamewar on HN, please. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- brokenkebab 6y ago"Muslim world" is somewhat misleading glamorizing generalization in all such statements. Pretty much all examples which are used as a proof of the MW comparatively advanced stage at early medieval times come from Iran/Persia, and Middle East. Both were very much advanced well-before Arab conquests, and simply continued to be so. There were many other parts of MW which were much below that level, or which to tge contrary experienced devastation, and decline as a result of the conquest. The Christendom was very uneven too, of course. And lots if people lived in mud huts in both realms. Also, blaming Mongols as if they were the sole destroyers is absolutely incorrect.
- free_rms 6y agoThe arab conquests were like ~700, we're talking about hundreds of years later. I think 'the muslim world' can take some credit for developments on that timeframe.
- frozenport 6y agoWere the Byzantines European?
- eternalban 6y agoNot sure if Mongols are -entirely- responsible for the decline. We should also consider the shift of international trade from land to sea, and subsequent loss of contact with external world, as the possible culprit. (Consider the Ottomans, for example). That said, here's a famous quote: O would that my mother had never borne me, that I had died before and that I were forgotten [so] tremendous disaster such as had never happened before, and which struck all the world, though the Muslims above all . . . Dadjdjal [Muslim Anti-Christ] will at least spare those who adhere to him, and will only destroy his adversaries. These [Mongols], however, spared none. They killed women, men, children, ripped open the bodies of the pregnant and slaughtered the unborn. - Ibn al-Athir (1233–1160)