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This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about though. I believe a lot of this bad advice stems from thie belief that "other people write bad software." W

This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about though. I believe a lot of this bad advice stems from thie belief that "other people write bad software." When you run into bugs day in and out, it's easy to reinforce this belief. Afterall, how can someone who claims to have all this experience and knowledge make such an obvious mistake? They're paid a salary and millions of people trust their software! I could do it better. The reality I believe is that these sorts of people are really compensating for the flaws they themselves are prone to making. When they catch these sorts of errors, they're just reinforcing patterns they themselves recognize as bad; likely because they themselves have made such a mistake in the past that someone else had pointed out to them. So when they call someone an "idiot," they're really calling themselves an "idiot," and bringing the other person down with them to bolster their sense of self worth. The truth is that we all are guilty of making mistakes. Operating systems that run the Internet, control nuclear reactors, and send really expensive robots into space all have bugs. They have security flaws. And they were written by individuals who've spent a significant amount of time paying their dues in the ivory tower and working their way up the career ladder. That a novice can also make the same mistake is not coincidence. It's human nature.

count 16y ago
I empathize with what you are saying, but I don't agree. I think it's crucial to recognize the difference between what I'm talking about, and what happens when people with experience make mistakes. Environment matters, tremendously. If you're an amateur hack, selling your 3rd rate skills to customers who don't know any better, and you're lack of capability is hurting people because your software is being exploited, the response SHOULD be swift, and harsh. If you are working within a framework of extensive testing, analysis, and basic rigor, and a mistake makes it through, and you add that case to your testing and learn from it, the response should be moderated significantly. Just because someone with 2 months of PHP experience CAN stand up a web service and take credit cards over the internet and become the next web success story, doesn't mean that they should. I believe this industry has gotten to the point where there needs to be minimum table stakes for entry - you can't just find somebody who'll design and sign off on a house for you for super cheap because they're new. There's a reason for that. Until IT moves out of the wild wild west, though, it needs to be policed like the wild wild west - shoot the idiots that threaten the town. Sorry that's kind of rambling, but I think it mostly gets my point across?
- agentultra 16y ago
  I think we're really talking about two different issues. I'm not even talking about doing something as silly as charging a client money for something you barely know how to do. That's just deceptive business practice and people should be lambasted for it. Misrepresenting your capabilities is reprehensible. What I'm talking about and what I think the OP was talking about is the negative attitude we have towards our fellow geeks. We discourage people from learning or trying their own ideas out. I think that's pretty sad. Even if they are re-inventing the wheel; let them try, man. Maybe they will end up with a better wheel. Or a special kind of wheel. You never know if you just tell them that it's already been done and they couldn't possibly build a better one anyway. So while I agree that some sort of safeguard against malicious business practices would be useful to the industry as a whole, I don't think it has anything to do with supporting a negative attitude towards our fellow geeks. Everyone has started somewhere and it's better to foster and encourage learning and experimentation than to institutionalize the practice of programming.
  - generalk 16y ago
    My original point was that it's not necessarily "deceptive business practice." For example: when I first built my buddy's business site, I wasn't knowingly half-assing his work, or attempting to extract maximum profit for minimum work. I was giving a good faith best-effort, which unfortunately (and unbeknownst to either of us) was well generally below accepted practices. Now, should someone have yelled at me and told me I was an idiot and shouldn't have been developing production sites? Maybe. Certainly, if we'd been exploited. It's easy to look on everyone with rose-tinted glasses until you accidentally cause your best friend's business to fail.
    - agentultra 16y ago
      I don't think calling someone an "idiot" helps them become better.

count 16y ago

I empathize with what you are saying, but I don't agree. I think it's crucial to recognize the difference between what I'm talking about, and what happens when people with experience make mistakes. Environment matters, tremendously. If you're an amateur hack, selling your 3rd rate skills to customers who don't know any better, and you're lack of capability is hurting people because your software is being exploited, the response SHOULD be swift, and harsh. If you are working within a framework of extensive testing, analysis, and basic rigor, and a mistake makes it through, and you add that case to your testing and learn from it, the response should be moderated significantly. Just because someone with 2 months of PHP experience CAN stand up a web service and take credit cards over the internet and become the next web success story, doesn't mean that they should. I believe this industry has gotten to the point where there needs to be minimum table stakes for entry - you can't just find somebody who'll design and sign off on a house for you for super cheap because they're new. There's a reason for that. Until IT moves out of the wild wild west, though, it needs to be policed like the wild wild west - shoot the idiots that threaten the town. Sorry that's kind of rambling, but I think it mostly gets my point across?

agentultra 16y ago
I think we're really talking about two different issues. I'm not even talking about doing something as silly as charging a client money for something you barely know how to do. That's just deceptive business practice and people should be lambasted for it. Misrepresenting your capabilities is reprehensible. What I'm talking about and what I think the OP was talking about is the negative attitude we have towards our fellow geeks. We discourage people from learning or trying their own ideas out. I think that's pretty sad. Even if they are re-inventing the wheel; let them try, man. Maybe they will end up with a better wheel. Or a special kind of wheel. You never know if you just tell them that it's already been done and they couldn't possibly build a better one anyway. So while I agree that some sort of safeguard against malicious business practices would be useful to the industry as a whole, I don't think it has anything to do with supporting a negative attitude towards our fellow geeks. Everyone has started somewhere and it's better to foster and encourage learning and experimentation than to institutionalize the practice of programming.
- generalk 16y ago
  My original point was that it's not necessarily "deceptive business practice." For example: when I first built my buddy's business site, I wasn't knowingly half-assing his work, or attempting to extract maximum profit for minimum work. I was giving a good faith best-effort, which unfortunately (and unbeknownst to either of us) was well generally below accepted practices. Now, should someone have yelled at me and told me I was an idiot and shouldn't have been developing production sites? Maybe. Certainly, if we'd been exploited. It's easy to look on everyone with rose-tinted glasses until you accidentally cause your best friend's business to fail.
  - agentultra 16y ago
    I don't think calling someone an "idiot" helps them become better.