6 ms·

The one thing that bothers me about Notion (and Slack and other "everything in one place" tools), is the lack of encryption. I might have FAANGophobia, but when

The one thing that bothers me about Notion (and Slack and other "everything in one place" tools), is the lack of encryption. I might have FAANGophobia, but whenever there is a free tier without a form of end-to-end encryption in place, it feels like a data puddle waiting to become a lake. That being said, having clear-text data would allow features like an API on publicly shared pages/blocks, to use Notion as a CMS. I have seen some attempts [1] at reverse-engineering their internal API, but an official one on a paid plan could be a nice addition. [1] https://github.com/splitbee/notion-api-worker https://github.com/splitbee/notion-api-worker

Benmcdonald__ 6y ago
There is no easy way to implement client side encryption. You will have a private key or long password the you will keep safe. You lose that all your data in gone. Plus it's difficult to securely move that password to a new platform
- chc4 6y ago
  Your data being inaccessible without a private key or password is the entire point.
  - drukenemo 6y ago
    Exactly. I cannot understand how this can’t be the user’s choice.
    - terpimost 6y ago
      Search is a problem. Index is available to a saas provider.
  - JoshTriplett 6y ago
    People rightfully get skittish when there's no "forgot password" mechanism to get their account and data back. I certainly agree that that's the point, but such a system needs some potential usability affordances. For instance, a key stored in the browser rather than a password the user has to remember, and ideally a key synced between multiple devices controlled by the user so that the loss or failure of one device does not mean loss of the account. For example, imagine having the browser generate an asymmetric key for the user, and making sure browsers store such keys (encrypted) in Firefox Sync or equivalent, so that the keys are safe even if the user moves to a new device or an existing device fails or gets lost.
    - Benmcdonald__ 6y ago
      How do you even sync the key between multiple devices? If you send the private key to the server that undoes any protection from the encryption
      - JoshTriplett 6y ago
        Firefox Sync has a model that doesn't trust the server.
      - franky47 6y ago
        You derive a master key from a password, and use that to encrypt other keys, or a more complex key chain if needed. You then only sync encrypted keys with the server.
    - franky47 6y ago
      I wrote some ideas on how to implement a password reset for end-to-end encrypted apps, reviews and comments are welcome: https://francoisbest.com/posts/2020/password-reset-for-e2ee-apps https://francoisbest.com/posts/2020/password-reset-for-e2ee-...
    - mkl 6y ago
      Keeping an unencrypted local mirror on your own device(s) would solve that problem, as well as potentially the "my data is stuck on their servers" problem. On devices with space for it, I mean, so maybe laptop but not phone by default.
- drukenemo 6y ago
  Much more critical (imo) software such as Backblaze offers full encryption, it’s the user choice and responsibility. That’s what privacy is also about.
  - fomine3 6y ago
    We can't compare how storage service implements E2E encryption for multi-functional note service.
- franky47 6y ago
  The idea is not to move the password, or any derived key, but the clear-text data. GDPR and other laws enforce that you give customers the right to access their data (in clear text), if possible in an interoperable form. Notion does so in CSV and Markdown, which is good enough to transfer to another service.
- xet7 6y ago
  Maybe it's not easy to have client side encryption, but it seems CryptPad has it: https://cryptpad.fr https://cryptpad.fr https://github.com/xwiki-labs/cryptpad https://github.com/xwiki-labs/cryptpad
- eddieroger 6y ago
  1Password figured it out, and even wrote a paper about it. So it's a solvable problem. They even figured out a good model for helping recover lost passwords when my family members forget it. https://1password.com/files/1Password-White-Paper.pdf https://1password.com/files/1Password-White-Paper.pdf Don't work for Agile Bits, but have used 1P for a long time and couldn't live without it.
_fzslm 6y ago
this is the only thing that stops me from using Notion, too. just downloaded it and it looks like it would change my life... except i don't own the data. right now i'm trying out Outline [1] which has an option for self hosting. [1] https://github.com/outline/outline https://github.com/outline/outline
- tommoor 6y ago
  Thanks for the mention! Outline also has an RPC-style API for the entire project btw, the documentation needs a little work but it's there: https://getoutline.com/developers https://getoutline.com/developers
- vz8 6y ago
  Would really appreciate your thoughts on this, if you have any initial feedback. We're considering the self-hosted option too - that's the big draw.
  - _fzslm 6y ago
    i've only been using it for a little bit, but here goes: * unlike Notion, it's one workspace per instance. makes sense, but worth noting as using workspaces as for organisational purposes won't work so well here. * for personal instances, Slack doesn't make all that much sense. i see a PR for LDAP support on GitHub, so i will play around with that * supports embeds just like Notion - paste the link and it just works. supports codepen, figma, gsuite, youtube and others. this was the feature that made me take notice of notion, so it's good to see it here. * even better, the embed API seems pretty easily extensible, so the sky's the limit here. i can't wait to make some sweet dashboards based on entirely self-hosted data! * no mobile app is a bit of a bummer, but the PWA experience works pretty well. considering i'll be authoring predominantly on desktop and only reading on iPhone, this isn't so much of a big deal for my use case * no auto-save :( * you can share a read-only, fully public link of any page you want. pretty damn cool. all in all i'm pretty impressed. it seems pretty robust! i mean, it's definitely not as full-fat as Notion, but perhaps that's a good thing - and OSS means it's easily extensible for whatever you need to use it for. who knows which way my opinion will change after some more extensive use, but this definitely shows promise.
paxys 6y ago
I'm assuming you are talking about end-to-end encryption, which in case of tools like Slack doesn't really make sense because it's the company that owns and has total control of the data, not you the end user. What happens when they need to hand over records for discovery, for example?
- franky47 6y ago
  Please elaborate what you mean by discovery ?
  - paxys 6y ago
    It's a legal term - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_(law) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_(law). Most countries/industries have some kind of regulation around data storage and retention for exactly this purpose.
    - franky47 6y ago
      The entire point of end-to-end encryption is to prevent this from being automated and abused by either the legal system or the company. Requiring a warrant to access the secret key on the user device reduces the risk of mass surveillance. Metadata (access logs) remain in clear text and can still be used to help authorities identify nefarious activity.
christian008 6y ago
Standard Notes is end-to-end encrypted: https://standardnotes.org https://standardnotes.org
alex_portabella 6y ago
We've been working on Portabella (https://portabella.io https://portabella.io) for the last four weeks in an effort to bring end-to-end encryption to everyday tasks. Currently we support basic kanban boards and lists. Like other comments have highlighted there is no reason for data not to be encrypted in this day and age. Currently everything happens client side, however we believe homomorphic encryption is at a level of sophistication that should support most users and their needs.
marvinblum 6y ago
Hi there. I'm a co-founder of Emvi [1] and we have an API on our paid plan (free as we are in beta right now) that you can use as a headless CMS. Our blog is an example of it. We have (incomplete) client libraries on GitHub [2]. [1] https://emvi.com/ https://emvi.com/ [2] https://github.com/emvi https://github.com/emvi
codeisawesome 6y ago
Made me puke when Evernote introduced the "Context" feature, a disgusting data grab. It's a much worse option than just searching for whatever I want by myself, with the added anti-feature of losing all privacy to Evernote staff (and whomever hacks/has already hacked them). My guess is that all these apps are salivating over the data to be able to train their NLP models which they can sell to an acquirer. I can't wait for Obsidian or some other app to reach feature parity (including wide, stable platform support). Would happily pay $$$ per year for it.

Benmcdonald__ 6y ago

There is no easy way to implement client side encryption. You will have a private key or long password the you will keep safe. You lose that all your data in gone. Plus it's difficult to securely move that password to a new platform

chc4 6y ago
Your data being inaccessible without a private key or password is the entire point.
- drukenemo 6y ago
  Exactly. I cannot understand how this can’t be the user’s choice.
  - terpimost 6y ago
    Search is a problem. Index is available to a saas provider.
- JoshTriplett 6y ago
  People rightfully get skittish when there's no "forgot password" mechanism to get their account and data back. I certainly agree that that's the point, but such a system needs some potential usability affordances. For instance, a key stored in the browser rather than a password the user has to remember, and ideally a key synced between multiple devices controlled by the user so that the loss or failure of one device does not mean loss of the account. For example, imagine having the browser generate an asymmetric key for the user, and making sure browsers store such keys (encrypted) in Firefox Sync or equivalent, so that the keys are safe even if the user moves to a new device or an existing device fails or gets lost.
  - Benmcdonald__ 6y ago
    How do you even sync the key between multiple devices? If you send the private key to the server that undoes any protection from the encryption
    - JoshTriplett 6y ago
      Firefox Sync has a model that doesn't trust the server.
    - franky47 6y ago
      You derive a master key from a password, and use that to encrypt other keys, or a more complex key chain if needed. You then only sync encrypted keys with the server.
  - franky47 6y ago
    I wrote some ideas on how to implement a password reset for end-to-end encrypted apps, reviews and comments are welcome: https://francoisbest.com/posts/2020/password-reset-for-e2ee-apps https://francoisbest.com/posts/2020/password-reset-for-e2ee-...
  - mkl 6y ago
    Keeping an unencrypted local mirror on your own device(s) would solve that problem, as well as potentially the "my data is stuck on their servers" problem. On devices with space for it, I mean, so maybe laptop but not phone by default.
drukenemo 6y ago
Much more critical (imo) software such as Backblaze offers full encryption, it’s the user choice and responsibility. That’s what privacy is also about.
- fomine3 6y ago
  We can't compare how storage service implements E2E encryption for multi-functional note service.
franky47 6y ago
The idea is not to move the password, or any derived key, but the clear-text data. GDPR and other laws enforce that you give customers the right to access their data (in clear text), if possible in an interoperable form. Notion does so in CSV and Markdown, which is good enough to transfer to another service.
xet7 6y ago
Maybe it's not easy to have client side encryption, but it seems CryptPad has it: https://cryptpad.fr https://cryptpad.fr https://github.com/xwiki-labs/cryptpad https://github.com/xwiki-labs/cryptpad
eddieroger 6y ago
1Password figured it out, and even wrote a paper about it. So it's a solvable problem. They even figured out a good model for helping recover lost passwords when my family members forget it. https://1password.com/files/1Password-White-Paper.pdf https://1password.com/files/1Password-White-Paper.pdf Don't work for Agile Bits, but have used 1P for a long time and couldn't live without it.

_fzslm 6y ago

this is the only thing that stops me from using Notion, too. just downloaded it and it looks like it would change my life... except i don't own the data. right now i'm trying out Outline [1] which has an option for self hosting. [1] https://github.com/outline/outline https://github.com/outline/outline

tommoor 6y ago
Thanks for the mention! Outline also has an RPC-style API for the entire project btw, the documentation needs a little work but it's there: https://getoutline.com/developers https://getoutline.com/developers
vz8 6y ago
Would really appreciate your thoughts on this, if you have any initial feedback. We're considering the self-hosted option too - that's the big draw.
- _fzslm 6y ago
  i've only been using it for a little bit, but here goes: * unlike Notion, it's one workspace per instance. makes sense, but worth noting as using workspaces as for organisational purposes won't work so well here. * for personal instances, Slack doesn't make all that much sense. i see a PR for LDAP support on GitHub, so i will play around with that * supports embeds just like Notion - paste the link and it just works. supports codepen, figma, gsuite, youtube and others. this was the feature that made me take notice of notion, so it's good to see it here. * even better, the embed API seems pretty easily extensible, so the sky's the limit here. i can't wait to make some sweet dashboards based on entirely self-hosted data! * no mobile app is a bit of a bummer, but the PWA experience works pretty well. considering i'll be authoring predominantly on desktop and only reading on iPhone, this isn't so much of a big deal for my use case * no auto-save :( * you can share a read-only, fully public link of any page you want. pretty damn cool. all in all i'm pretty impressed. it seems pretty robust! i mean, it's definitely not as full-fat as Notion, but perhaps that's a good thing - and OSS means it's easily extensible for whatever you need to use it for. who knows which way my opinion will change after some more extensive use, but this definitely shows promise.

paxys 6y ago

I'm assuming you are talking about end-to-end encryption, which in case of tools like Slack doesn't really make sense because it's the company that owns and has total control of the data, not you the end user. What happens when they need to hand over records for discovery, for example?

franky47 6y ago
Please elaborate what you mean by discovery ?
- paxys 6y ago
  It's a legal term - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_(law) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_(law). Most countries/industries have some kind of regulation around data storage and retention for exactly this purpose.
  - franky47 6y ago
    The entire point of end-to-end encryption is to prevent this from being automated and abused by either the legal system or the company. Requiring a warrant to access the secret key on the user device reduces the risk of mass surveillance. Metadata (access logs) remain in clear text and can still be used to help authorities identify nefarious activity.

christian008 6y ago

Standard Notes is end-to-end encrypted: https://standardnotes.org https://standardnotes.org

alex_portabella 6y ago

We've been working on Portabella (https://portabella.io https://portabella.io) for the last four weeks in an effort to bring end-to-end encryption to everyday tasks. Currently we support basic kanban boards and lists. Like other comments have highlighted there is no reason for data not to be encrypted in this day and age. Currently everything happens client side, however we believe homomorphic encryption is at a level of sophistication that should support most users and their needs.

marvinblum 6y ago

Hi there. I'm a co-founder of Emvi [1] and we have an API on our paid plan (free as we are in beta right now) that you can use as a headless CMS. Our blog is an example of it. We have (incomplete) client libraries on GitHub [2]. [1] https://emvi.com/ https://emvi.com/ [2] https://github.com/emvi https://github.com/emvi

codeisawesome 6y ago

Made me puke when Evernote introduced the "Context" feature, a disgusting data grab. It's a much worse option than just searching for whatever I want by myself, with the added anti-feature of losing all privacy to Evernote staff (and whomever hacks/has already hacked them). My guess is that all these apps are salivating over the data to be able to train their NLP models which they can sell to an acquirer. I can't wait for Obsidian or some other app to reach feature parity (including wide, stable platform support). Would happily pay $$$ per year for it.