4 ms·

To anyone reading this thread and thinking "The horror!": Being culled through these various methods is no better or worse than they would have experienced und

by vzidex 6y ago

To anyone reading this thread and thinking "The horror!": Being culled through these various methods is no better or worse than they would have experienced under "normal" conditions - i.e. being raised until they are fit for slaughter and sale. No animal wants to die, and the methods used to kill them when being sold are just as cruel as the "culling" techniques listed here [1]. If you don't like what you're reading in this article, go vegan. Otherwise, you're paying for other people to inflict this sort of suffering on animals. [1] Dominion (2018): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko

bbrree66 6y ago
This is the only reasonable response in this entire post.
sokoloff 6y ago
Though I'm a meat-eater, I upvoted this for the unvarnished truth it contains.
- vzidex 6y ago
  Thank you. In the spirit of full disclosure, I'm not successful in following a 100% vegan diet myself. I still get fried chicken with my significant other (who follows a normal Western diet) sometimes, as a guilty comfort food when I'm struggling mentally or especially stressed. I still eat mayonnaise and margarine when I'm visiting my parents, because I don't want to hassle them to buy the vegan variants just for me, and I decide that I am willing to use those products occasionally, knowing the suffering that went into them. Very few people are 100% perfect in following their chosen diet - vegan, vegetarian, keto, weight-loss, etc. The important part is to try your best, and bear in mind the consequences of what you're consuming.
im3w1l 6y ago
Another point of view is that slaughter is "special" and while permitted requires us to to be respectful and make good use of the meat and bones.
- vzidex 6y ago
  I would disagree with that point of view, I see no respect for the animals in a modern factory farming process - which produces the vast majority of animal products consumed in the Western world (see the documentary I linked in my original comment).
deweller 6y ago
Not all animal slaughter is overly cruel. One can eat meat without contributing to excessive cruelty to animals. In contrast to large meat corporations, there are local farmers that do care about the methods used to slaughter their animals. Yes animals must be killed to be eaten. But "this sort of suffering" is not a necessity.
- vzidex 6y ago
  > Not all animal slaughter is overly cruel Sure, but no animal wants to die. No matter how you kill it, you're still harming it. > there are local farmers that do care about the methods used to slaughter their animals The problem is that farms like that are exceedingly rare, and I think that their existence is mostly used as a mental cop-out to avoid feeling bad about the animal products one consumes. By exceedingly rare, I mean that factory farms produce (in the USA) [1]: * 99.9% of meat chickens * 97% of egg-laying hens * 99% of turkeys * 95% of pigs * 78% of cattle I've also make a bunch of points relating to the natural lifespans of animals, the issues with modern breeds, and whitewashing of animal farming practices in my other comment [2]. If animals were to be raised for their products (meat, eggs, dairy, wool) in ways that do not contribute any excess cruelty to their lives - i.e. letting them live out most of their natural lives, giving them space, good food, loving care, and not raising modern breeds that suffer from their over-engineering - I would expect said products to cost an order of magnitude more than what you typically find at the grocery store these days. Odds are your "free-range" eggs that cost 30% more than the cheapest ones aren't it. If you want to consume animal products, go ahead. But, face the consequences of your diet, and acknowledge what you are paying others to do - without imagining the magical "cruelty-free" farm. That was the point of my post: that while in theory you can have wonderful farms with happy animals, in practice they don't exist. [1] https://www.huffpost.com/entry/its-time-to-end-factory-f_b_1018840 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/its-time-to-end-factory-f_b_1... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23237599 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23237599
  - dazilcher 6y ago
    > no animal wants to die Since we're pretending to speak on their behalf, I posit no animal wants to not live either. By going vegan, you are not merely sparing some animals, you are denying their very existence. Is a miserable short life, ending in painful death, worse than no life at all? (rhetorical, pretty sure there's no universal answer)
gadders 6y ago
Disclosure: I eat meat. Since I've kept hens, it's strange but I've been a lot more "respectful" towards eggs. It's almost like they're a gift from the chicken. I think it is sad that animals die to feed us (even though I eat meat), but for an animals meat to be wasted is a tragedy.
- vzidex 6y ago
  I'd agree with you here, these animals already exist and I think it's extremely sad that their lives will have been entirely for waste. The point of my original comment was that in the vast majority of cases, the way they are being treated right now - i.e. culled with these various methods - is par for the course for the modern animal products industry. That said, I hope you give your hens a good home, and if you do I applaud you. Despite trying my best to maintain a vegan diet right now, I would love to one day raise (heritage breed, that lay infrequently) hens in my backyard - assuming I have one, as a city-dweller.
  - gadders 6y ago
    We cull the very sick (because vets by and large don't know about chickens, and entering the vets cost about 3 times the cost of the chicken) and the roosters (because you really only need one per flock). Other than that, they have space outside to roam, and we even have some "freeloaders" - hens that have become too old to lay, but we keep them on anyway.
downerending 6y ago
People should be aware of the facts. That said, in general, slaughter methods involve less suffering than all of us are likely to experience at our deaths, and likewise less than animals in nature generally experience. That's no reason not to try to improve slaughter methods (and emergency culling methods). Also, I've eaten vegan for a few years. I don't anymore, but it's worth doing, just as an experience.
- vzidex 6y ago
  > slaughter methods involve less suffering than all of us are likely to experience at our deaths, and likewise less than animals in nature generally experience Sure, but that says nothing about the suffering these animals experience during their (short [1]) lives, which is typically immense [2] - >=97% of farm animals are raised on factory farms (except for cows, at 78%) [3]. So yes, people should be aware of the facts. Out of curiosity, why did you shift away from a vegan diet? [1] https://www.four-paws.us/campaigns-topics/topics/farm-animals/life-expectancy https://www.four-paws.us/campaigns-topics/topics/farm-animal... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko [3] https://www.huffpost.com/entry/its-time-to-end-factory-f_b_1018840 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/its-time-to-end-factory-f_b_1...
  - WalterGR 6y ago
    Sure, but that says nothing about the suffering these animals experience during their (short [1]) lives You’re moving the goalposts.
  - downerending 6y ago
    It was a variety of factors. I lived in a very meat-eating city, and just finding sufficiently vegan things to eat was a real chore. And I missed it quite a bit, both personally, and as a social activity. Also, upon (even more) lengthy consideration, the ethical considerations seemed less compelling. Having children, for example, seems far more unethical than eating meat, etc. Obviously, opinions vary.
    - 6y ago
YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
Personally, I'm not so much concerned about the means of culling. I'm much more horrified that those animals die for nothing. They could be slaughtered and sold for food and there are many people who would appreciate that food, especially if it was sold at cut price. But they're just destroyed because that's the only profitable thing to do. This is wasteful and it is the wastefulness of it that turns the killing of animals that were going to die anyway into an atrocity.

by vzidex 6y ago

bbrree66 6y ago

This is the only reasonable response in this entire post.

sokoloff 6y ago

Though I'm a meat-eater, I upvoted this for the unvarnished truth it contains.

vzidex 6y ago
Thank you. In the spirit of full disclosure, I'm not successful in following a 100% vegan diet myself. I still get fried chicken with my significant other (who follows a normal Western diet) sometimes, as a guilty comfort food when I'm struggling mentally or especially stressed. I still eat mayonnaise and margarine when I'm visiting my parents, because I don't want to hassle them to buy the vegan variants just for me, and I decide that I am willing to use those products occasionally, knowing the suffering that went into them. Very few people are 100% perfect in following their chosen diet - vegan, vegetarian, keto, weight-loss, etc. The important part is to try your best, and bear in mind the consequences of what you're consuming.

im3w1l 6y ago

Another point of view is that slaughter is "special" and while permitted requires us to to be respectful and make good use of the meat and bones.

vzidex 6y ago
I would disagree with that point of view, I see no respect for the animals in a modern factory farming process - which produces the vast majority of animal products consumed in the Western world (see the documentary I linked in my original comment).

deweller 6y ago

Not all animal slaughter is overly cruel. One can eat meat without contributing to excessive cruelty to animals. In contrast to large meat corporations, there are local farmers that do care about the methods used to slaughter their animals. Yes animals must be killed to be eaten. But "this sort of suffering" is not a necessity.

vzidex 6y ago
> Not all animal slaughter is overly cruel Sure, but no animal wants to die. No matter how you kill it, you're still harming it. > there are local farmers that do care about the methods used to slaughter their animals The problem is that farms like that are exceedingly rare, and I think that their existence is mostly used as a mental cop-out to avoid feeling bad about the animal products one consumes. By exceedingly rare, I mean that factory farms produce (in the USA) [1]: * 99.9% of meat chickens * 97% of egg-laying hens * 99% of turkeys * 95% of pigs * 78% of cattle I've also make a bunch of points relating to the natural lifespans of animals, the issues with modern breeds, and whitewashing of animal farming practices in my other comment [2]. If animals were to be raised for their products (meat, eggs, dairy, wool) in ways that do not contribute any excess cruelty to their lives - i.e. letting them live out most of their natural lives, giving them space, good food, loving care, and not raising modern breeds that suffer from their over-engineering - I would expect said products to cost an order of magnitude more than what you typically find at the grocery store these days. Odds are your "free-range" eggs that cost 30% more than the cheapest ones aren't it. If you want to consume animal products, go ahead. But, face the consequences of your diet, and acknowledge what you are paying others to do - without imagining the magical "cruelty-free" farm. That was the point of my post: that while in theory you can have wonderful farms with happy animals, in practice they don't exist. [1] https://www.huffpost.com/entry/its-time-to-end-factory-f_b_1018840 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/its-time-to-end-factory-f_b_1... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23237599 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23237599
- dazilcher 6y ago
  > no animal wants to die Since we're pretending to speak on their behalf, I posit no animal wants to not live either. By going vegan, you are not merely sparing some animals, you are denying their very existence. Is a miserable short life, ending in painful death, worse than no life at all? (rhetorical, pretty sure there's no universal answer)

gadders 6y ago

Disclosure: I eat meat. Since I've kept hens, it's strange but I've been a lot more "respectful" towards eggs. It's almost like they're a gift from the chicken. I think it is sad that animals die to feed us (even though I eat meat), but for an animals meat to be wasted is a tragedy.

vzidex 6y ago
I'd agree with you here, these animals already exist and I think it's extremely sad that their lives will have been entirely for waste. The point of my original comment was that in the vast majority of cases, the way they are being treated right now - i.e. culled with these various methods - is par for the course for the modern animal products industry. That said, I hope you give your hens a good home, and if you do I applaud you. Despite trying my best to maintain a vegan diet right now, I would love to one day raise (heritage breed, that lay infrequently) hens in my backyard - assuming I have one, as a city-dweller.
- gadders 6y ago
  We cull the very sick (because vets by and large don't know about chickens, and entering the vets cost about 3 times the cost of the chicken) and the roosters (because you really only need one per flock). Other than that, they have space outside to roam, and we even have some "freeloaders" - hens that have become too old to lay, but we keep them on anyway.

downerending 6y ago

People should be aware of the facts. That said, in general, slaughter methods involve less suffering than all of us are likely to experience at our deaths, and likewise less than animals in nature generally experience. That's no reason not to try to improve slaughter methods (and emergency culling methods). Also, I've eaten vegan for a few years. I don't anymore, but it's worth doing, just as an experience.

vzidex 6y ago
> slaughter methods involve less suffering than all of us are likely to experience at our deaths, and likewise less than animals in nature generally experience Sure, but that says nothing about the suffering these animals experience during their (short [1]) lives, which is typically immense [2] - >=97% of farm animals are raised on factory farms (except for cows, at 78%) [3]. So yes, people should be aware of the facts. Out of curiosity, why did you shift away from a vegan diet? [1] https://www.four-paws.us/campaigns-topics/topics/farm-animals/life-expectancy https://www.four-paws.us/campaigns-topics/topics/farm-animal... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko [3] https://www.huffpost.com/entry/its-time-to-end-factory-f_b_1018840 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/its-time-to-end-factory-f_b_1...
- WalterGR 6y ago
  Sure, but that says nothing about the suffering these animals experience during their (short [1]) lives You’re moving the goalposts.
- downerending 6y ago
  It was a variety of factors. I lived in a very meat-eating city, and just finding sufficiently vegan things to eat was a real chore. And I missed it quite a bit, both personally, and as a social activity. Also, upon (even more) lengthy consideration, the ethical considerations seemed less compelling. Having children, for example, seems far more unethical than eating meat, etc. Obviously, opinions vary.
  - 6y ago

YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago

Personally, I'm not so much concerned about the means of culling. I'm much more horrified that those animals die for nothing. They could be slaughtered and sold for food and there are many people who would appreciate that food, especially if it was sold at cut price. But they're just destroyed because that's the only profitable thing to do. This is wasteful and it is the wastefulness of it that turns the killing of animals that were going to die anyway into an atrocity.