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Some of this thread is conflating being an asshole (subjective) with being abusive. Jordan was abusive and thought that was the way to get the best out of those

Some of this thread is conflating being an asshole (subjective) with being abusive. Jordan was abusive and thought that was the way to get the best out of those around him. So it's worth remembering that The Last Dance wasn't Jordan's last time in the NBA. MJ came out of retirement to play for the Wizards. Acted just as he did when he was Air Jordan with the Bulls, but could no longer back up his abusive behavior with his play [0]. Instead of elevating the Wizards, Jordan being an asshole now hurt the team in a number of different ways. A person may be deemed an asshole for having high standards. They don't have to be abusive to hold those high standards though. Ed Catmull and Pixar have high standards but are not abusive in the mold of Jordan or Jobs [1]. Kim Scott wrote an entire book, Radical Candor, about how to demand excellence without being abusive [2]. [0] https://slate.com/culture/2020/05/the-last-dance-michael-jordan-bulls-wizards.html https://slate.com/culture/2020/05/the-last-dance-michael-jor... [1] http://www.bugaj.com/blog/2014/9/14/you-sir-are-no-ed-catmull http://www.bugaj.com/blog/2014/9/14/you-sir-are-no-ed-catmul... [2] https://www.radicalcandor.com/ https://www.radicalcandor.com/

gustavo-fring 6y ago
Just a reminder that the environment at Pixar was abusive in other ways, notably in the other major figure being a serial harrasser that had moves designed after him to avoid his advances. I think that says a lot about Catmull and the leadership there that they tolerated that kind of abusive behavior to get greatness. But yeah, to get to your other point, I recall Jerry Stackhouse saying he hated playing with Jordan (was sorry he did) and I figure Kwame Brown's career certainly wasn't helped. The repeated belittling of Krause by Jordan that comes up in the doc (height, weight) was that of a small mean person. His interactions with Kerr suggest that Jordan valued people standing up to him above all, which was also something he had in common with Jobs. I think this meanness is something that we should watch out for in leaders, it is a sign that something is broken and that brokenness can hurt others. Jobs, Jordan, and Musk all display it, the small ugly pettiness. It is destructive and dehumanizing to both the victim and the person doing it. Phil Jackson (as others have pointed out) shows you don't need it. There's no way he is the coach he was without the humility and empathy he had. Jordan et al saw someone like Rodman as talent to be used for a time, Jackson genuinely cared about him. It's what drives me crazy when people ignore the destructive behavior of Musk - he's the kind of personality that has shown time and time again that peole are disposable, even his biggest fans. He'll dispose of you as soon as it is convenient. We should dispose of that leadership style.
- heymijo 6y ago
  Agree 100 percent about Catmull and Pixar ignoring and enabling John Lasseter's sexual harassment/abuse of women at the company. Appreciate you bringing it up and contrasting with the "small ugly pettiness" of the MJ/Jobs/Musk ilk.
- tomp 6y ago
  You're too strict. We all have "ugly pettiness". We all sometimes curse, or hurt people, or make mistakes. Just because someone like Musk is highly visible and his every action get scrutinized to infinity, doesn't mean we should hold higher standards for him than we apply to the rest of people (who aren't in the media). In fact, personally I'd be willing to cut Musk extra slack on the account of all the amazing things that he's done/made happen, even if he does some (not too) "bad" stuff his life is still net positive.
JabavuAdams 6y ago
In general, is there a well-defined line between trying to get the best out of someone, and being abusive. I mean one that generalizes across people? Behaviour that would be okay in some contexts (military training) would rightly be considered abusive in other contexts. Two individuals can be subjected to the same treatment and have widely divergent ideas about whether it was abusive or not.
- heymijo 6y ago
  That's a great question. Followed by a good point about perception of the individual being important. As for a well-defined line about abuse, I'll draw from Justice Potter Stewart's utterance about pornography [0]: > I know it when I see it. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobellis_v._Ohio#Supreme_Court https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobellis_v._Ohio#Supreme_Cou...
- darkerside 6y ago
  While there is no one right answer for everybody, I like to think about the ideas of "eustress" versus distress. Both kinds of stress are uncomfortable for people, but one kind results in positive growth and the other in exhaustion. The best coaches and teachers are able to recognize where someone is, what the next level is for that person, and knows how to push (or pull) them into that next level for a while.
stevewodil 6y ago
Thank you for the book recommendation. I hold things to an extremely high standard and even living with roommates makes me feel like an asshole due to my constant nagging them to clean certain things.
m463 6y ago
Radical Candor HIP: Humble, Helpful, Immediate, In person, Public praise/Private criticism, not Personalized. "in person" - might have to change IP to TCP/IP nowadays
xtiansimon 6y ago
> "Some of this thread is conflating being an asshole (subjective) with being abusive." Abusive. That I understand. Asshole--what does that even mean. Even the author isn't consistent: > "But it’s also largely bullshit. Now, to be clear, I don’t know if any of the above people were or are truly assholes, nor does it really matter. People are complicated. We’re all assholes sometimes. But it’s the connection that is often drawn — notably in the clip by Jordan himself — to the idea that being a jerk is necessary to achieve greatness." It's all bullshit. I don't know if it's true. It doesn't matter. Everyone has an asshole. Life is complicated. Jordan is now a jerk. For the past four years people have been saying it's a waste of time to argue with the president on his terms. And here is an article trying to make sense of profane language--and failing. It's not good journalism or blogging. Abusive? Ok. I understand that. Asshole? I'd rather _watch sports_ than talk about bullshit.

gustavo-fring 6y ago

Just a reminder that the environment at Pixar was abusive in other ways, notably in the other major figure being a serial harrasser that had moves designed after him to avoid his advances. I think that says a lot about Catmull and the leadership there that they tolerated that kind of abusive behavior to get greatness. But yeah, to get to your other point, I recall Jerry Stackhouse saying he hated playing with Jordan (was sorry he did) and I figure Kwame Brown's career certainly wasn't helped. The repeated belittling of Krause by Jordan that comes up in the doc (height, weight) was that of a small mean person. His interactions with Kerr suggest that Jordan valued people standing up to him above all, which was also something he had in common with Jobs. I think this meanness is something that we should watch out for in leaders, it is a sign that something is broken and that brokenness can hurt others. Jobs, Jordan, and Musk all display it, the small ugly pettiness. It is destructive and dehumanizing to both the victim and the person doing it. Phil Jackson (as others have pointed out) shows you don't need it. There's no way he is the coach he was without the humility and empathy he had. Jordan et al saw someone like Rodman as talent to be used for a time, Jackson genuinely cared about him. It's what drives me crazy when people ignore the destructive behavior of Musk - he's the kind of personality that has shown time and time again that peole are disposable, even his biggest fans. He'll dispose of you as soon as it is convenient. We should dispose of that leadership style.

heymijo 6y ago
Agree 100 percent about Catmull and Pixar ignoring and enabling John Lasseter's sexual harassment/abuse of women at the company. Appreciate you bringing it up and contrasting with the "small ugly pettiness" of the MJ/Jobs/Musk ilk.
tomp 6y ago
You're too strict. We all have "ugly pettiness". We all sometimes curse, or hurt people, or make mistakes. Just because someone like Musk is highly visible and his every action get scrutinized to infinity, doesn't mean we should hold higher standards for him than we apply to the rest of people (who aren't in the media). In fact, personally I'd be willing to cut Musk extra slack on the account of all the amazing things that he's done/made happen, even if he does some (not too) "bad" stuff his life is still net positive.

JabavuAdams 6y ago

In general, is there a well-defined line between trying to get the best out of someone, and being abusive. I mean one that generalizes across people? Behaviour that would be okay in some contexts (military training) would rightly be considered abusive in other contexts. Two individuals can be subjected to the same treatment and have widely divergent ideas about whether it was abusive or not.

heymijo 6y ago
That's a great question. Followed by a good point about perception of the individual being important. As for a well-defined line about abuse, I'll draw from Justice Potter Stewart's utterance about pornography [0]: > I know it when I see it. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobellis_v._Ohio#Supreme_Court https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobellis_v._Ohio#Supreme_Cou...
darkerside 6y ago
While there is no one right answer for everybody, I like to think about the ideas of "eustress" versus distress. Both kinds of stress are uncomfortable for people, but one kind results in positive growth and the other in exhaustion. The best coaches and teachers are able to recognize where someone is, what the next level is for that person, and knows how to push (or pull) them into that next level for a while.

stevewodil 6y ago

Thank you for the book recommendation. I hold things to an extremely high standard and even living with roommates makes me feel like an asshole due to my constant nagging them to clean certain things.

m463 6y ago

Radical Candor HIP: Humble, Helpful, Immediate, In person, Public praise/Private criticism, not Personalized. "in person" - might have to change IP to TCP/IP nowadays

xtiansimon 6y ago

> "Some of this thread is conflating being an asshole (subjective) with being abusive." Abusive. That I understand. Asshole--what does that even mean. Even the author isn't consistent: > "But it’s also largely bullshit. Now, to be clear, I don’t know if any of the above people were or are truly assholes, nor does it really matter. People are complicated. We’re all assholes sometimes. But it’s the connection that is often drawn — notably in the clip by Jordan himself — to the idea that being a jerk is necessary to achieve greatness." It's all bullshit. I don't know if it's true. It doesn't matter. Everyone has an asshole. Life is complicated. Jordan is now a jerk. For the past four years people have been saying it's a waste of time to argue with the president on his terms. And here is an article trying to make sense of profane language--and failing. It's not good journalism or blogging. Abusive? Ok. I understand that. Asshole? I'd rather _watch sports_ than talk about bullshit.