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To further my attempt at inserting George Orwell's Politics and the English Language into every conversation, I think this quote applies. :-) The words democra

To further my attempt at inserting George Orwell's Politics and the English Language into every conversation, I think this quote applies. :-) The words democracy, socialism, freedom, patriotic, realistic, justice have each of them several different meanings which cannot be reconciled with one another. In the case of a word like democracy, not only is there no agreed definition, but the attempt to make one is resisted from all sides. - George Orwell, Politics and the English Language (http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm) I think "hipster" is generally one of those meaningless words in a lot of cases. Often times it's not pointing at what should truly be denouncing IMO (doing things for "irony", hating on popular things for no reason, being elitist, etc), but simply as a way of just generally denouncing people. "Oh you listen to bands I haven't heard of? You fucking hipster." as if there's no way the person in question truly likes that band regardless of their popularity. That's just an example from the cases where there's a specific objection other than "hipster". It's just become a popular nebulous term to hate on, and I've gotten tired of seeing it everywhere. I luckily rarely come across "hipsters" so I'm not too annoyed by them, but "hipster-haters" are constantly bitching about whatever "hipsters" do.

chrisrhoden 16y ago
The anti-hipster culture is hilarious. It is impossible for me to read this without pointing out that after a very well-reasoned and largely accurate argument against the completely irrational spite, you close with a (admittedly small) taste of the very disgust you just denounced. "I luckily rarely come across 'hipsters'." It's pervasive, even in the group itself. Hipster doesn't actually mean anything specific to anyone, it simply means, "a member of the counterculture which I find offensive at the moment." And, shocker, the people who you would consider, "hipsters," are just as guilty of this. The problem with this, from my perspective, is that it's also a catch-all for people who are difficult to categorize. Even before the word was co-opted to be a generally negative term, it was nebulous at best, referring generally to young people who are interested in culture or art or food or music or, really, anything. As a result of this, people get lumped into this group based on these very general terms, and then assumptions are made about their character by regurgitating every complaint anyone has slapped the word "hipster" after, as though it's representative of everyone who wears sweaters. No, not everyone who has a moustache is an elitist. Not everyone who smoked pot in college loves Bob Marley, do they? I encourage people to stop using this word at all. It's just stupid, meaningless, and devoid of positive connotations for most of the world.
- reinhardt 16y ago
  Agreed; Hipster Hitler is still damn funny though ;)
- arcwhite 16y ago
  Well, by that logic, we should abandon all labels altogether. Down with identification of groups of people! Cast off the oppressive shackles of classification! Down here in Australia, "Hipsters" are an easily recognizable and quite specific cultural subgroup: Thick-rim glasses, no actual vision impediment to justify them, Impractically skinny jeans, Borderline offensively cliched facial hair (ie. Hercule Poirot-esque moustaches) and - most importantly - Irrational dislike of anything "mainstream" or "commercial" (with little/no other justification) It's no longer meaningful counter-culture, it's become a very specific subculture in and of itself (at least down here) - a culture I would describe not as counter-culture, but anti-culture. It's ceased to be productive and meaningful, and simply become (like Monty Python's Argument Clinic) the automatic gainsay of anything "mainstream". I've no tolerance for it, because (in my opinion, at least) it's highly pretentious and offers very little in the way of positive change. I find that subculture to be, in general, very negative (often for very little reason). When I talk about Hipsters, I'm generally referring not to the dress, but to the attitude. Maybe you're right, and I should be referring to those specific attitudes as what I take issue with - but sometimes convenient (if inaccurate) labels make communication faster.
  - chrisrhoden 16y ago
    Frankly, we have made efforts for quite a while to eliminate classifications which are used solely to put people down. While it is true that hipster is not as offensive as some other classifying words and carries none of the historical baggage, it has become a slur, nothing more. What you've described sounds like a caricature. While it is possible that the more nuanced culture formed elsewhere and was made extreme on it's way to your shores (and, indeed, there is evidence of this having happened in many other cases), I am not sure that is what is going on here. The specific attitude you describe is one I see commonly attributed to hipsters, and only in very rare cases a fair characterization. I think that The Yeah Yeah Yeahs and Radiohead (to throw something out there) are examples of incredibly commercial, mainstream bands which most of the people you are describing would be into. Saying that you don't like the new Shins album because it is very mainstream doesn't actually mean that you don't like it because people are buying it (they aren't), it means that it doesn't seem challenging or interesting to you. It seems designed for mainstream appeal. In the US, the word is not applied solely to the group that you describe, either. It's used to describe people who live in particular areas, people who ride bicycles, people who shop at thrift stores, people who listen to public radio, people who see lots of live music, and people who listen to records on vinyl, and this is by no means an exhaustive list. The most important thing is that people seem to have flipped your description of the attitude on it's head; It's not about whether or not you dislike "mainstream" or "commercial" things, it's about whether or not you like something which doesn't fall into one of these categories. I agree that your description of this group doesn't make me want to hang out with anyone in it, but it certainly doesn't make me feel like I shouldn't tollerate it. If there is a group of people who want to be very bad at conversation at parties, more power to them. If I believed that most people made these judgements on a case by case basis, that would be one thing, but that's not the case in my experience. The assumption seems to be that if you match one of these very superficial and general categories, I can mantle your personality and judge you (with little/no other justification, see what I did there?)

chrisrhoden 16y ago

The anti-hipster culture is hilarious. It is impossible for me to read this without pointing out that after a very well-reasoned and largely accurate argument against the completely irrational spite, you close with a (admittedly small) taste of the very disgust you just denounced. "I luckily rarely come across 'hipsters'." It's pervasive, even in the group itself. Hipster doesn't actually mean anything specific to anyone, it simply means, "a member of the counterculture which I find offensive at the moment." And, shocker, the people who you would consider, "hipsters," are just as guilty of this. The problem with this, from my perspective, is that it's also a catch-all for people who are difficult to categorize. Even before the word was co-opted to be a generally negative term, it was nebulous at best, referring generally to young people who are interested in culture or art or food or music or, really, anything. As a result of this, people get lumped into this group based on these very general terms, and then assumptions are made about their character by regurgitating every complaint anyone has slapped the word "hipster" after, as though it's representative of everyone who wears sweaters. No, not everyone who has a moustache is an elitist. Not everyone who smoked pot in college loves Bob Marley, do they? I encourage people to stop using this word at all. It's just stupid, meaningless, and devoid of positive connotations for most of the world.

reinhardt 16y ago
Agreed; Hipster Hitler is still damn funny though ;)
arcwhite 16y ago
Well, by that logic, we should abandon all labels altogether. Down with identification of groups of people! Cast off the oppressive shackles of classification! Down here in Australia, "Hipsters" are an easily recognizable and quite specific cultural subgroup: Thick-rim glasses, no actual vision impediment to justify them, Impractically skinny jeans, Borderline offensively cliched facial hair (ie. Hercule Poirot-esque moustaches) and - most importantly - Irrational dislike of anything "mainstream" or "commercial" (with little/no other justification) It's no longer meaningful counter-culture, it's become a very specific subculture in and of itself (at least down here) - a culture I would describe not as counter-culture, but anti-culture. It's ceased to be productive and meaningful, and simply become (like Monty Python's Argument Clinic) the automatic gainsay of anything "mainstream". I've no tolerance for it, because (in my opinion, at least) it's highly pretentious and offers very little in the way of positive change. I find that subculture to be, in general, very negative (often for very little reason). When I talk about Hipsters, I'm generally referring not to the dress, but to the attitude. Maybe you're right, and I should be referring to those specific attitudes as what I take issue with - but sometimes convenient (if inaccurate) labels make communication faster.
- chrisrhoden 16y ago
  Frankly, we have made efforts for quite a while to eliminate classifications which are used solely to put people down. While it is true that hipster is not as offensive as some other classifying words and carries none of the historical baggage, it has become a slur, nothing more. What you've described sounds like a caricature. While it is possible that the more nuanced culture formed elsewhere and was made extreme on it's way to your shores (and, indeed, there is evidence of this having happened in many other cases), I am not sure that is what is going on here. The specific attitude you describe is one I see commonly attributed to hipsters, and only in very rare cases a fair characterization. I think that The Yeah Yeah Yeahs and Radiohead (to throw something out there) are examples of incredibly commercial, mainstream bands which most of the people you are describing would be into. Saying that you don't like the new Shins album because it is very mainstream doesn't actually mean that you don't like it because people are buying it (they aren't), it means that it doesn't seem challenging or interesting to you. It seems designed for mainstream appeal. In the US, the word is not applied solely to the group that you describe, either. It's used to describe people who live in particular areas, people who ride bicycles, people who shop at thrift stores, people who listen to public radio, people who see lots of live music, and people who listen to records on vinyl, and this is by no means an exhaustive list. The most important thing is that people seem to have flipped your description of the attitude on it's head; It's not about whether or not you dislike "mainstream" or "commercial" things, it's about whether or not you like something which doesn't fall into one of these categories. I agree that your description of this group doesn't make me want to hang out with anyone in it, but it certainly doesn't make me feel like I shouldn't tollerate it. If there is a group of people who want to be very bad at conversation at parties, more power to them. If I believed that most people made these judgements on a case by case basis, that would be one thing, but that's not the case in my experience. The assumption seems to be that if you match one of these very superficial and general categories, I can mantle your personality and judge you (with little/no other justification, see what I did there?)