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I live in Vermont and I'm tentatively excited about this. Unfortunately, our municipal internet provider in Burlington, VT was financially a disaster [1]. The

I live in Vermont and I'm tentatively excited about this. Unfortunately, our municipal internet provider in Burlington, VT was financially a disaster [1]. The tax payers put up a bunch of money. Burlington Telecom was mismanaged into defaulting on its debts causing the city's bond rating to fall to nearly junk bond status. It was sold at a loss to a private company. [2] Very disappointing considering how awesome Burlington Telecom is. I currently pay $35 for 1G symmetrical in my apartment building. Hopefully if this statewide project goes through, they don't repeat those mistakes. [1] https://vermontbiz.com/news/2019/march/13/citibank-fully-releases-burlington-335-million-bt-lawsuit https://vermontbiz.com/news/2019/march/13/citibank-fully-rel... (Citibank fully releases Burlington from $33.5 million BT lawsuit) [2] https://www.wcax.com/content/news/The-Burlington-Telecom-saga-and-how-we-got-to-where-we-are-455070453.html https://www.wcax.com/content/news/The-Burlington-Telecom-sag... (Burlington Telecom timeline: How did we get here?)

toomuchtodo 6y ago
The same could be said about Frontier [1] and Windstream [2]. I like that Vermont keeps trying, my internet should be like my water, sewer, and similar local services: a utility. The unemployed can be trained to run fiber, and the Fed is going to keep soaking up muni bonds [3], not much to lose by trying again. Capital is cheap, treat failure as just as cheap. It can be done [4] [5]. But you have to care. You have to build public systems and goods that are loved, because to love them is to want to provide ongoing care for them, and to invest yourself in them (financially and otherwise). [1] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/04/frontiers-bankruptcy-reveals-cynical-choice-deny-profitable-fiber-millions https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/04/frontiers-bankruptcy-r... (EFF: Frontier’s Bankruptcy Reveals Why Big ISPs Choose to Deny Fiber to So Much of America) [2] https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/02/windstream-isp-with-1-million-customers-files-for-bankruptcy/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/02/winds... (Windstream, ISP with 1 million customers, files for bankruptcy) [3] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/27/the-fed-says-it-is-expanding-its-municipal-bond-buying-program.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/27/the-fed-says-it-is-expanding... (CNBC: The Fed says it is expanding its municipal bond buying program) [4] https://muninetworks.org/communitymap https://muninetworks.org/communitymap (US Muni Fiber Map) [5] https://b4rn.org.uk/ https://b4rn.org.uk/ (England: Broadband for the Rural North)
- jessaustin 6y ago
  I don't know anything about Windstream, but Frontier is another firm (others include FairPoint and Hawaiian Telcom) that tried to find a business in Verizon's trash bin. In every case, poor service and bankruptcy was what they found instead. Regulators knew they shouldn't let VZN divest from these customer bases, so they imposed some fig-leaf requirements that didn't accomplish anything.
  - taborj 6y ago
    > but Frontier is another firm (others include FairPoint and Hawaiian Telcom) that tried to find a business in Verizon's trash bin Can confirm; now our ISP/telco is Ziply Fiber, whoever they are.
    - Wistar 6y ago
      Ziply is small, headquartered in Kirkland, WA. So far, they have managed to get local TV station KIRO 7 back on their lineup after 2 years of Frontier refusing to pay what KIRO's owners, Cox Communications, were asking. The monthly bill has gotten totally out of hand, though.
- zajio1am 6y ago
  > I like that Vermont keeps trying, my internet should be like my water, sewer, and similar local services: a utility. It is practically impossible to run multiple competing water and sewer pipes or other utilies. But there is no such problem with fiber. Or there could be public passive fiber operated by multiple competing ISPs. Proper role of government is to actively encourage competition, not destroy market by subsidised public service. But it seems that US government instead actively discourage competition, which leads to bad commercial services, which leads to public preference for monopolistic government service, with all its problems well known from Europe past.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    You're entitled to your opinion of course, but it has repeatedly been shown that ISPs will not make the necessary investments, and instead will over leverage with debt while milking the customer base for the most dollars they can while providing the lowest quality of service tolerable. Private enterprise had their chance, decades even. Fool us once.
mc32 6y ago
Curious; what were the mismanagement mistakes and how can they be avoided, suggestions? It’s not obvious. I’d like for something like this to succeed, but one rarely sees things align to where noble goals don’t attract perverse incentives.
- tribeofone 6y ago
  It was run by progressive policies instead of business principles. This is going to fail too, the same people are going to make the same mistakes. They could not even deliver broadband within the city limits, how are they going to do it statewide? Think Mosquito coast.
  - Ididntdothis 6y ago
    “It was run by progressive policies instead of business principles.“ You should probably elaborate on this. Otherwise it’s an empty statement.
  - dariusj18 6y ago
    There's no need to run a municipal agency as if it were a private business. What do you imagine the difference between "progressive policies" and "business principals" are?
    - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      While "maximize profit" and "deliver shareholder value" are a recipe for predatory behavior when applied to government organizations and government granted monopolies there's definitely a need for municipal departments to pay attention to money input in relation to services output. I'm unaware of the specific details but I suspect Burlington Telecom lit a bunch of money on fire chasing some noble goal and in the process compromised their ability to do some other key part of their job in a satisfactory manner. This isn't an uncommon failure mode for municipal government departments that suffer scope creep.
      - 6y ago
pdxandi 6y ago
I moved from Vermont to the Bay Area a couple years ago and the internet service from Burlington Telecom was fast and inexpensive. I think I paid $40 for 150Mbps or something. I'm now basically limited to Xfinity out here and dealing with customer service is the typical Comcast nightmare. Thanks for sharing the article. I was loosely aware of the issues with the company but not the whole picture.
- 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 6y ago
  The Bay Area, for all of it’s “we’re e center of the world’s technology” hoorah, has exceptionally poor internet services except in pockets. The city governments here could care less ultimately about technology, and are more interested in social justice pet projects.
josefresco 6y ago
I stayed at a campground in Burlington (North Beach) a few times and the free "municipal" wifi was very fast and quite impressive compared to the options available elsewhere. It wasn't quite as fast that last time we visited, but much more reliable than most public options.
rayiner 6y ago
$35 is too low for gigabit service with high northeastern labor costs. It might be reasonable for France or Spain, where the workers on the lines make $40,000 and taxes pay for benefits, but it’s not doable for the USA, where skilled labor like maintaining fiber lines pays $80,000+ with employer-paid benefits. Verizon’s RPU is about $100/month for FiOS. Year after year (for the 15 or so years since they launched FiOS) the operating margin of the wireline division is under 5%. Chatanooga’s public electric utility offers a gigabit tier at $68/month. It’s financially viable with some subsidy from the electric utility, which also uses the fiber network for smart grid. And also they have cheaper labor in a right to work state.
- pdxandi 6y ago
  I believe $35 is their subsidized rate for students and whatnot. Their standard rate is around $70.

toomuchtodo 6y ago

The same could be said about Frontier [1] and Windstream [2]. I like that Vermont keeps trying, my internet should be like my water, sewer, and similar local services: a utility. The unemployed can be trained to run fiber, and the Fed is going to keep soaking up muni bonds [3], not much to lose by trying again. Capital is cheap, treat failure as just as cheap. It can be done [4] [5]. But you have to care. You have to build public systems and goods that are loved, because to love them is to want to provide ongoing care for them, and to invest yourself in them (financially and otherwise). [1] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/04/frontiers-bankruptcy-reveals-cynical-choice-deny-profitable-fiber-millions https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/04/frontiers-bankruptcy-r... (EFF: Frontier’s Bankruptcy Reveals Why Big ISPs Choose to Deny Fiber to So Much of America) [2] https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/02/windstream-isp-with-1-million-customers-files-for-bankruptcy/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/02/winds... (Windstream, ISP with 1 million customers, files for bankruptcy) [3] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/27/the-fed-says-it-is-expanding-its-municipal-bond-buying-program.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/27/the-fed-says-it-is-expanding... (CNBC: The Fed says it is expanding its municipal bond buying program) [4] https://muninetworks.org/communitymap https://muninetworks.org/communitymap (US Muni Fiber Map) [5] https://b4rn.org.uk/ https://b4rn.org.uk/ (England: Broadband for the Rural North)

jessaustin 6y ago
I don't know anything about Windstream, but Frontier is another firm (others include FairPoint and Hawaiian Telcom) that tried to find a business in Verizon's trash bin. In every case, poor service and bankruptcy was what they found instead. Regulators knew they shouldn't let VZN divest from these customer bases, so they imposed some fig-leaf requirements that didn't accomplish anything.
- taborj 6y ago
  > but Frontier is another firm (others include FairPoint and Hawaiian Telcom) that tried to find a business in Verizon's trash bin Can confirm; now our ISP/telco is Ziply Fiber, whoever they are.
  - Wistar 6y ago
    Ziply is small, headquartered in Kirkland, WA. So far, they have managed to get local TV station KIRO 7 back on their lineup after 2 years of Frontier refusing to pay what KIRO's owners, Cox Communications, were asking. The monthly bill has gotten totally out of hand, though.
zajio1am 6y ago
> I like that Vermont keeps trying, my internet should be like my water, sewer, and similar local services: a utility. It is practically impossible to run multiple competing water and sewer pipes or other utilies. But there is no such problem with fiber. Or there could be public passive fiber operated by multiple competing ISPs. Proper role of government is to actively encourage competition, not destroy market by subsidised public service. But it seems that US government instead actively discourage competition, which leads to bad commercial services, which leads to public preference for monopolistic government service, with all its problems well known from Europe past.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  You're entitled to your opinion of course, but it has repeatedly been shown that ISPs will not make the necessary investments, and instead will over leverage with debt while milking the customer base for the most dollars they can while providing the lowest quality of service tolerable. Private enterprise had their chance, decades even. Fool us once.

mc32 6y ago

Curious; what were the mismanagement mistakes and how can they be avoided, suggestions? It’s not obvious. I’d like for something like this to succeed, but one rarely sees things align to where noble goals don’t attract perverse incentives.

tribeofone 6y ago
It was run by progressive policies instead of business principles. This is going to fail too, the same people are going to make the same mistakes. They could not even deliver broadband within the city limits, how are they going to do it statewide? Think Mosquito coast.
- Ididntdothis 6y ago
  “It was run by progressive policies instead of business principles.“ You should probably elaborate on this. Otherwise it’s an empty statement.
- dariusj18 6y ago
  There's no need to run a municipal agency as if it were a private business. What do you imagine the difference between "progressive policies" and "business principals" are?
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    While "maximize profit" and "deliver shareholder value" are a recipe for predatory behavior when applied to government organizations and government granted monopolies there's definitely a need for municipal departments to pay attention to money input in relation to services output. I'm unaware of the specific details but I suspect Burlington Telecom lit a bunch of money on fire chasing some noble goal and in the process compromised their ability to do some other key part of their job in a satisfactory manner. This isn't an uncommon failure mode for municipal government departments that suffer scope creep.
    - 6y ago

pdxandi 6y ago

I moved from Vermont to the Bay Area a couple years ago and the internet service from Burlington Telecom was fast and inexpensive. I think I paid $40 for 150Mbps or something. I'm now basically limited to Xfinity out here and dealing with customer service is the typical Comcast nightmare. Thanks for sharing the article. I was loosely aware of the issues with the company but not the whole picture.

3fe9a03ccd14ca5 6y ago
The Bay Area, for all of it’s “we’re e center of the world’s technology” hoorah, has exceptionally poor internet services except in pockets. The city governments here could care less ultimately about technology, and are more interested in social justice pet projects.

josefresco 6y ago

I stayed at a campground in Burlington (North Beach) a few times and the free "municipal" wifi was very fast and quite impressive compared to the options available elsewhere. It wasn't quite as fast that last time we visited, but much more reliable than most public options.

rayiner 6y ago

$35 is too low for gigabit service with high northeastern labor costs. It might be reasonable for France or Spain, where the workers on the lines make $40,000 and taxes pay for benefits, but it’s not doable for the USA, where skilled labor like maintaining fiber lines pays $80,000+ with employer-paid benefits. Verizon’s RPU is about $100/month for FiOS. Year after year (for the 15 or so years since they launched FiOS) the operating margin of the wireline division is under 5%. Chatanooga’s public electric utility offers a gigabit tier at $68/month. It’s financially viable with some subsidy from the electric utility, which also uses the fiber network for smart grid. And also they have cheaper labor in a right to work state.

pdxandi 6y ago
I believe $35 is their subsidized rate for students and whatnot. Their standard rate is around $70.