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The best part about it is that SawStop went to each of the tool manufacturers asking to license their technology so people could be safer. For an extra cost of

The best part about it is that SawStop went to each of the tool manufacturers asking to license their technology so people could be safer. For an extra cost of $10, they ended up having to build their own hardware because noone took them up on it.

michaelcampbell 6y ago
And then tried to force this technology (at whatever price they could get) by lobbying the CPSC to make it mandatory.
- mauvehaus 6y ago
  And sued Bosch over the Bosch REAXX table saw, which is a different implementation of a similar concept. As a result, you can't buy the REAXX in the US at the moment. https://www.protoolreviews.com/news/sawstop-vs-bosch-reaxx-lawsuit-not-yet/26066/ https://www.protoolreviews.com/news/sawstop-vs-bosch-reaxx-l...
  - pkaye 6y ago
    Interesting because who brands are owned by different German companies. Is Bosch able to sell it in Germany though?
    - mauvehaus 6y ago
      Not sure, I'm in the US over here :-) My understanding is that US-style cabinet saws are extraordinarily rare in Europe, and sliding table saws (Altendorf, Felder, etc) dominate the European market in stationary installations. I don't know whether jobsite saws exist in Europe, which is the market segment Bosch was bringing their technology into. All that to say, in Germany, the issue may well be moot. The 2017 Festool acquisition appears to postdate the 2016 lawsuit. I have no knowledge of the acquisition timing beyond the easily googleable press releases and news articles. It may well have begun while the suit was pending.
      - brodouevencode 6y ago
        They do have jobsite saws, the ones I have seen look like our mobile contractor saws (Delta, etc)
  - deleted 6y ago
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- deleted 6y ago
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syshum 6y ago
Please cite your $10 fee narrative, only Reference [1] I can find, and this history I know of from my memory at the time the Licensing fees where not even remotely that small Closer to 3-8% of gross sales was what as demanded on a product that often does not have that much margin to begin with, thus the licensing of the tech would have took a hug part of the profits of each saw sale Contract Talks ultimately broke down when the companies wanted the inventor to indemnify them from law suits if the tech failed, not over a "$10 fee" like you imply in your comment [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SawStop#Attempt_to_license,_2002 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SawStop#Attempt_to_license,_20...
- bickfordb 6y ago
  I'm also surprised by this claim. SawStop table saws cost 3x the equivalent from other manufacturers. It's unfortunate the technology wasn't licensed out. It's a critical safety feature on one of the most dangerous consumer tools.
- perl4ever 6y ago
  "the licensing of the tech would have took a huge part of the profits of each saw sale" That seems to be assuming that consumers would not pay one penny more for the safer saw. I guess if you're afraid of people relying on it, then suing, you can't really market it. Which seems like a good argument for it being mandated by government, assuming it can be implemented in a way that works.
ashtonkem 6y ago
The benefit to the tool maker of SawStop is clear: not only does it save the fingers of your customers, it destroys a large number of components in the saw after use. This means that the customer must buy a new motor, mount, etc. after almost losing a finger; a trade that I personally would be willing to make.
- mauvehaus 6y ago
  I can assure you that it does not damage the motor, mount, arbor, trunnion assembly, or any other major components of the saw. The cartridge is expended, but that is the only part of the saw that needs to be replaced as a matter of course. Whether the blade survives or not is a bit of a crapshoot, but the smart money is on having to replace it. If you happen to trip the saw with flesh, Saw Stop will send you a free replacement cartridge if you mail them your expended one. They'll run diagnostics and verify that it was tripped on flesh, and mail you a new one. Source: I've been present in two shops for 4 trips on two different saws, all other people. 3 were an aluminum miter gauge fence (Incra), one was fingers. In both cases the saws are known to have been tripped a great many more times than that. Neither saw has had anything but the blade and cartridge replaced.
  - markkanof 6y ago
    Worth noting that replacing a blade can be a fairly expensive proposition depending on the blade you were using, but of course the argument is that the cost of that is far cheaper than medical bills and lost fingers. Seems like a valid argument assuming it's not a false trip. Also, the safety feature can be temporarily disabled if needed to cut through something like damp wood that might cause a false trip.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - bradlys 6y ago
      A $200 saw blade can be resharpened after such an incident. It’s not as expensive as you might think.
grogenaut 6y ago
According to wikipedia they only went to ryobi and wanted 3% royalty of the wholesale price and then decided to go their own way when there was a stall in the licensing.

michaelcampbell 6y ago

And then tried to force this technology (at whatever price they could get) by lobbying the CPSC to make it mandatory.

mauvehaus 6y ago
And sued Bosch over the Bosch REAXX table saw, which is a different implementation of a similar concept. As a result, you can't buy the REAXX in the US at the moment. https://www.protoolreviews.com/news/sawstop-vs-bosch-reaxx-lawsuit-not-yet/26066/ https://www.protoolreviews.com/news/sawstop-vs-bosch-reaxx-l...
- pkaye 6y ago
  Interesting because who brands are owned by different German companies. Is Bosch able to sell it in Germany though?
  - mauvehaus 6y ago
    Not sure, I'm in the US over here :-) My understanding is that US-style cabinet saws are extraordinarily rare in Europe, and sliding table saws (Altendorf, Felder, etc) dominate the European market in stationary installations. I don't know whether jobsite saws exist in Europe, which is the market segment Bosch was bringing their technology into. All that to say, in Germany, the issue may well be moot. The 2017 Festool acquisition appears to postdate the 2016 lawsuit. I have no knowledge of the acquisition timing beyond the easily googleable press releases and news articles. It may well have begun while the suit was pending.
    - brodouevencode 6y ago
      They do have jobsite saws, the ones I have seen look like our mobile contractor saws (Delta, etc)
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

syshum 6y ago

Please cite your $10 fee narrative, only Reference [1] I can find, and this history I know of from my memory at the time the Licensing fees where not even remotely that small Closer to 3-8% of gross sales was what as demanded on a product that often does not have that much margin to begin with, thus the licensing of the tech would have took a hug part of the profits of each saw sale Contract Talks ultimately broke down when the companies wanted the inventor to indemnify them from law suits if the tech failed, not over a "$10 fee" like you imply in your comment [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SawStop#Attempt_to_license,_2002 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SawStop#Attempt_to_license,_20...

bickfordb 6y ago
I'm also surprised by this claim. SawStop table saws cost 3x the equivalent from other manufacturers. It's unfortunate the technology wasn't licensed out. It's a critical safety feature on one of the most dangerous consumer tools.
perl4ever 6y ago
"the licensing of the tech would have took a huge part of the profits of each saw sale" That seems to be assuming that consumers would not pay one penny more for the safer saw. I guess if you're afraid of people relying on it, then suing, you can't really market it. Which seems like a good argument for it being mandated by government, assuming it can be implemented in a way that works.

ashtonkem 6y ago

The benefit to the tool maker of SawStop is clear: not only does it save the fingers of your customers, it destroys a large number of components in the saw after use. This means that the customer must buy a new motor, mount, etc. after almost losing a finger; a trade that I personally would be willing to make.

mauvehaus 6y ago
I can assure you that it does not damage the motor, mount, arbor, trunnion assembly, or any other major components of the saw. The cartridge is expended, but that is the only part of the saw that needs to be replaced as a matter of course. Whether the blade survives or not is a bit of a crapshoot, but the smart money is on having to replace it. If you happen to trip the saw with flesh, Saw Stop will send you a free replacement cartridge if you mail them your expended one. They'll run diagnostics and verify that it was tripped on flesh, and mail you a new one. Source: I've been present in two shops for 4 trips on two different saws, all other people. 3 were an aluminum miter gauge fence (Incra), one was fingers. In both cases the saws are known to have been tripped a great many more times than that. Neither saw has had anything but the blade and cartridge replaced.
- markkanof 6y ago
  Worth noting that replacing a blade can be a fairly expensive proposition depending on the blade you were using, but of course the argument is that the cost of that is far cheaper than medical bills and lost fingers. Seems like a valid argument assuming it's not a false trip. Also, the safety feature can be temporarily disabled if needed to cut through something like damp wood that might cause a false trip.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - bradlys 6y ago
    A $200 saw blade can be resharpened after such an incident. It’s not as expensive as you might think.

grogenaut 6y ago

According to wikipedia they only went to ryobi and wanted 3% royalty of the wholesale price and then decided to go their own way when there was a stall in the licensing.