9 ms·

Maybe true, but give them a chance at least... See firefox, inkscape as successful examples.

pclark 16y ago
neither of those have network effects, they can thrive in oligopoly markets, I think that communication is a winner takes all (ironically why you want it to be an open standard, but such is innovation from startups)
- thisisfmu 16y ago
  skype alternatives do have a (small) chance despite strong network effects. 1/ policy makers do not like running a third-party closed-source obfuscated binary with undefined behavior aggressively evading firewalls inside their business or country (in the case of China). 2/ the network effects are not nearly as strong as, for instance, ebay's. i do not care about being able to call random strangers on skype, only about my contacts. the scope of the network effect is to some extent that of a social group, not an entire market.
  - pmjordan 16y ago
    The network effects are (luckily) also not exclusive. There's no reason why you can't use Skype AND a SIP phone AND GNU phone software - the only time it's an issue is when you want to do a conference call. That said, if GNU want to win this one, they'd better not make freedom their main "selling" point. Skype's usability and reliability leave some room for improvement, and users might care about those points enough to switch.
    - tomjen3 16y ago
      Actually in this case they can win on freedom and they can do so by telling people that anybody can listen to their phonecalls (which is very likely true, almost certainly with a warrant) -- people care about their privacy (even though most likely nobody cares what they are saying). But more importantly Skype can fix the ux. They cannot fix the freedom issue (and if they somehow manage to do so anyway, great).
  - tghnjtghn 16y ago
    >only about my contacts So Alice has to install Google talk to call you, skype to call Bob and SIP to talk to Carol Meanwhile Bob has microsoft phone to talk to ....
- mlinksva 16y ago
  Firefox and Inkscape have network effects, albeit more limited than Skype. The more people using Firefox, the more sites work with Firefox. Not a big issue now, but it was. And Firefox must have spread largely through word of mouth (actually anyone done research on how Firefox adoption did predominantly occur?). More people using Inkscape, more acceptable it is to use, and better it works with files one might receive (assuming Inkscape works a bit better with svg than with Illustrator or whatever that it must import), same for Open/LibreOffice (which definitely works better with ODF than OOXML). All software has network effects to some extent; a significant reason why using free/open source software is a matter of good citizenship, not just getting stuff done.
- jerf 16y ago
  "I think that communication is a winner takes all" Which cell phone manufacturer has "taken all"? You seem to be basing your statement on the impossibility of interoperability, which is an odd position to take, at least if you actually think about it.
  - aaronbrethorst 16y ago
    Regarding cell phone manufacturers: that's not really the same thing. Phone numbers are universal. It's not like an iPhone user on AT&T can only call other AT&T users[1], or that T-Mobile customers can only call other T-Mobile customers. Skype limits me to reaching out to other Skype users. FaceTime only works with people who have bought into the Apple ecosystem. [1] Although one might suggest that these iPhone users can, in fact, call no one.
    - jerf 16y ago
      Ah, you got my point.
    - woodson 16y ago
      Well, that's due to rigorous standardization. Think about the speech codecs etc. used in mobile telephony. It's not like a phone number gives you anything more than an IP address does.
      - deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
- phillco 16y ago
  Actually, browsers do have network effects. If you're not important enough that web developers test their sites against you, you are going to suffer. See Opera.
mootothemax 16y ago
See firefox, inkscape as successful examples. Yes, but do you remember surfing the web in the days between Netscape 4 and Mozilla being launched, and quite how horrible it was for anyone with a technical mind who just wanted to be able to, e.g., debug some Javascript in a timely manner? If FF was only available for Linux it would never have taken off. Attempting to challenge an already hugely successful product that's works excellently on Windows is every bit as pointless as writing yet another office suite. The real tragedy is the engineering effort that will go into this, when it could be spent on parts of the Linux system that really matter to the average user, e.g. sorting out the mess that is sound.
felipe 16y ago
See firefox, inkscape as successful examples. Firefox is a great alternative to a sucky dominant player (IE). Inkscape is a great alternative to expensive dominant players (graphic software). The problem with this case is that Skype is excellent, free and dominant. There is no incentive for users to switch, other than being open source (which appeals to people like you and me, but the masses don't care)
- wyclif 16y ago
  There is no incentive for users to switch ...unless you're on Linux.
  - jtheory 16y ago
    What's the incentive for Linux users? Philosophical consistency?
    - Kliment 16y ago
      Skype on Linux is lagging behind on supported functionality and has a number of program-freezing audio subsystem bugs.
    - ciupicri 16y ago
      No 64bit version last time I've checked.
    - vedang 16y ago
      skype sucks on linux.
- Peaker 16y ago
  Skype has a horrible interface. It's Galaxy S Android client doesn't work and the problem hasn't been addressed in many months. I'll be one of the first to jump ship.
  - jstedfast 16y ago

neither of those have network effects, they can thrive in oligopoly markets, I think that communication is a winner takes all (ironically why you want it to be an open standard, but such is innovation from startups)

thisisfmu 16y ago
skype alternatives do have a (small) chance despite strong network effects. 1/ policy makers do not like running a third-party closed-source obfuscated binary with undefined behavior aggressively evading firewalls inside their business or country (in the case of China). 2/ the network effects are not nearly as strong as, for instance, ebay's. i do not care about being able to call random strangers on skype, only about my contacts. the scope of the network effect is to some extent that of a social group, not an entire market.
- pmjordan 16y ago
  The network effects are (luckily) also not exclusive. There's no reason why you can't use Skype AND a SIP phone AND GNU phone software - the only time it's an issue is when you want to do a conference call. That said, if GNU want to win this one, they'd better not make freedom their main "selling" point. Skype's usability and reliability leave some room for improvement, and users might care about those points enough to switch.
  - tomjen3 16y ago
    Actually in this case they can win on freedom and they can do so by telling people that anybody can listen to their phonecalls (which is very likely true, almost certainly with a warrant) -- people care about their privacy (even though most likely nobody cares what they are saying). But more importantly Skype can fix the ux. They cannot fix the freedom issue (and if they somehow manage to do so anyway, great).
- tghnjtghn 16y ago
  >only about my contacts So Alice has to install Google talk to call you, skype to call Bob and SIP to talk to Carol Meanwhile Bob has microsoft phone to talk to ....
mlinksva 16y ago
Firefox and Inkscape have network effects, albeit more limited than Skype. The more people using Firefox, the more sites work with Firefox. Not a big issue now, but it was. And Firefox must have spread largely through word of mouth (actually anyone done research on how Firefox adoption did predominantly occur?). More people using Inkscape, more acceptable it is to use, and better it works with files one might receive (assuming Inkscape works a bit better with svg than with Illustrator or whatever that it must import), same for Open/LibreOffice (which definitely works better with ODF than OOXML). All software has network effects to some extent; a significant reason why using free/open source software is a matter of good citizenship, not just getting stuff done.
jerf 16y ago
"I think that communication is a winner takes all" Which cell phone manufacturer has "taken all"? You seem to be basing your statement on the impossibility of interoperability, which is an odd position to take, at least if you actually think about it.
- aaronbrethorst 16y ago
  Regarding cell phone manufacturers: that's not really the same thing. Phone numbers are universal. It's not like an iPhone user on AT&T can only call other AT&T users[1], or that T-Mobile customers can only call other T-Mobile customers. Skype limits me to reaching out to other Skype users. FaceTime only works with people who have bought into the Apple ecosystem. [1] Although one might suggest that these iPhone users can, in fact, call no one.
  - jerf 16y ago
    Ah, you got my point.
  - woodson 16y ago
    Well, that's due to rigorous standardization. Think about the speech codecs etc. used in mobile telephony. It's not like a phone number gives you anything more than an IP address does.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
phillco 16y ago
Actually, browsers do have network effects. If you're not important enough that web developers test their sites against you, you are going to suffer. See Opera.

mootothemax 16y ago

See firefox, inkscape as successful examples. Yes, but do you remember surfing the web in the days between Netscape 4 and Mozilla being launched, and quite how horrible it was for anyone with a technical mind who just wanted to be able to, e.g., debug some Javascript in a timely manner? If FF was only available for Linux it would never have taken off. Attempting to challenge an already hugely successful product that's works excellently on Windows is every bit as pointless as writing yet another office suite. The real tragedy is the engineering effort that will go into this, when it could be spent on parts of the Linux system that really matter to the average user, e.g. sorting out the mess that is sound.

felipe 16y ago

See firefox, inkscape as successful examples. Firefox is a great alternative to a sucky dominant player (IE). Inkscape is a great alternative to expensive dominant players (graphic software). The problem with this case is that Skype is excellent, free and dominant. There is no incentive for users to switch, other than being open source (which appeals to people like you and me, but the masses don't care)

wyclif 16y ago
There is no incentive for users to switch ...unless you're on Linux.
- jtheory 16y ago
  What's the incentive for Linux users? Philosophical consistency?
  - Kliment 16y ago
    Skype on Linux is lagging behind on supported functionality and has a number of program-freezing audio subsystem bugs.
  - ciupicri 16y ago
    No 64bit version last time I've checked.
  - vedang 16y ago
    skype sucks on linux.
Peaker 16y ago
Skype has a horrible interface. It's Galaxy S Android client doesn't work and the problem hasn't been addressed in many months. I'll be one of the first to jump ship.
- jstedfast 16y ago