10 ms·

Condescending feedback says more about the speaker than the listener. It is almost invariably about their own insecurity. This is true is almost all fields of

by edw519 16y ago

Condescending feedback says more about the speaker than the listener. It is almost invariably about their own insecurity. This is true is almost all fields of endeavor, not just programming. Just a few examples of my own: Insecure bridge player: The queen of spades was a stupid play. What's wrong with you? Excellent bridge player: The queen of spades would have been a great play against a 4/2 split. But since you had a 3/3 split, what do you think would have happened if you had played the ace instead? Insecure public speaker: You look like an idiot playing with your hands like that. Excellent public speaker: You talked about a lot of cool things. I bet I would have been even more interested if I wasn't distracted so much by your hand gestures. Insecure parent: If you can't keep that baby quiet, you should just stay at home! Excellent parent: Here's something that has really worked well for me when my kids cried in public... Insecure programmer: How lame. I can't believe you <insert almost anything you could have done>. Excellent programmer: I see that works. I have found a few ways to make it work even better. Let me know what you think.

thorax 16y ago
I am insecure in every area you mention above, and I do everything in my power to approach advice exactly as you phrase it. Perhaps this is because I am insecure (all I know is that no one really knows everything), I choose to phrase things that way, often also seeing if they know something I didn't. I don't think there's as close a tie between condescension and insecurity-- but perhaps in some cases that happens. I'd rather people just never be condescending, regardless of what position they're coming from.
knowtheory 16y ago
Vociferous opposition is not the same as condescension, though. There are some people who care deeply about a subject and just lack social tact. They'll jump on you for a variety of subjects, but they don't have ill intent. Then there are the people who are dicks and want to crush people who they disagree with. It's the point at which one starts displaying schadenfreude and denigrating others that the line has been crossed.
- AndrewDucker 16y ago
  People who lack social tact need to be taught it. They aren't stupid, generally, they can be taught, if it's made clear that they must. Treating people badly is a great way to drive out those who don't have the ability to deal with flamewars and shoutiness. And many of those people have a lot to contribute.
  - wtfffr 16y ago
    People won't learn that when sites are run horribly, as this one is. My first interaction on this site consisted of somebody making a snarky personal attack, which got upvoted. The person apologized via email, but pg refused to remove any of it. Apparently it was important to pg that some snarky, bullshit, personal attack remain present, visible and upvoted, even though both I and the person who made it wanted it gone. So seriously... with leadership like that, how the fuck can anybody expect people to be nice?
  - ahoyhere 16y ago
    They should learn it themselves. There are books & training courses on the subject. But people rarely seek these out because they are so defensive about their deficiencies that they turn even those into a contention -- they say "this is just the way I am, take it or leave it."
    - stcredzero 16y ago
      Think of it as evolution in action. (And I shall take this whole post as a call to clean up my act.)
      - nerfhammer 16y ago
        So all we have to do it just wait a few generations, and...
        mgns 16y ago
        Hopefully just one generation as being an ass may stop them from getting along with the opposite sex and reproduce...
dexen 16y ago
Each of the `Excellent xxx' response you give differs in two important hitches from the `Insecure xxx': 1) it requires much common context, understanding, experience. Everybody will understand a ``this sucks'' response, regardless of the reasoning behind it being clear. Understanding a, and building better solution on, an involved response requires common understanding, common experience, between the parties of communication. (What the heck is a 4/2 split? I dunno, honestly; this response only serves as a distraction to me at that very moment). Lacking common experience is a communication barrier hard to climb, thus frustrating. It may be that very precise subjects (like computer science) provide for more such barriers, thus more frustration. 2) the ``This sucks'' response lets you vent anger. Now there are two conflicting theories about controlling strong emotions... ;-)
- stuhacking 16y ago
  2) the ``This sucks'' response lets you vent anger. Now there are two conflicting theories about controlling strong emotions... ;-) I realise that this is intended for humour, but more seriously, I have experienced much better anger reduction when actually chatting amiably with someone and making a friendly recommendation. ``This sucks'' just passes on the negativity to others.
  - gnaritas 16y ago
    > I have experienced much better anger reduction when actually chatting amiably Great for you, but not everyone is you; some people need to vent to feel better.
    - joliss 16y ago
      I seem to recall that there are studies showing that venting isn't an effective tool to make you feel better, despite the popular "catharsis" meme. I can't find them right now, but here's a quote: http://www.bakadesuyo.com/a-few-more-things-pop-psychology-has-been-wro http://www.bakadesuyo.com/a-few-more-things-pop-psychology-h... In any case, if somebody feels the need to vent, I hope they don't do it where I end up reading them. ^^
MrJagil 16y ago
Can someone please explain the logic behind "condescending feedback = insecurity"? And I mean that sincerely. I have been thinking about this for a long time now, and I just cannot come up with any supporting evidence to explain the corelation. It might sound like a stupid request, but I think it is a hard argument to make totally water proof.
- DanI-S 16y ago
  I see it this way: The only reason to give condescending feedback is to demonstrate your superiority over the person you're criticizing. If you truly wanted to be helpful, you'd be giving helpful feedback. If you were truly confident in your own abilities, you wouldn't feel the need to demonstrate your superiority.
  - bgurupra 16y ago
    I think condescending feedback = insecurity is a bit of a generalization.Maybe sometimes it is true but not all the time - for example Linus' "feedback" on CVS was pretty condescending but I doubt that was because he was insecure
    - DanI-S 16y ago
      It's definitely a generalization; it just seems to be a reasonably reliable one :). I suppose the insecurity doesn't have to be about domain knowledge, either - it could be about communication skills. Perhaps some people giving condescending feedback don't feel like they are able to communicate in any other way. They experience the desire to contribute, but aren't confident in their tutoring skills and don't want to risk sounding stupid by bungling an explanation. This is admittedly pure speculation...
    - entreprenewb 16y ago
      And let's not confuse real condescension with blunt truth that's interpreted as condescension but is not inherently malicious. I think a lot of people may seem condescending because they are more direct than most people are accustomed to.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
elptacek 16y ago
It has taken me half a lifetime to grow a "thick skin" against comments like this. It's lame to admit, but I've abandoned half a dozen really cool projects in the face of feedback like this. Being a parent has made me realize that there's a word for people who react this way: bully. In teaching my kids to cope with it, I'm teaching myself, too. They were pretty surprised to hear that bullies act out of insecurity.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- dools 16y ago
  There was a post here a little while ago from the 37signals blog "There's no room for just shitting on someone else's work" in response to the "read the fucking hig" website. In that post, the author says "... they're creating something, and that's awesome". I became a parent (nearly) 1 year ago and when I read this phrase it really put this whole "geek wars" thing into perspective. If my child grows up to be passionate enough to create anything I'll be so pleased. I wouldn't even care if it were good or bad. There are so many worse things that a person can do in the world than create things, we should all just be heaping praise on each other for even trying to do something great. Being a parent does wonders for your perspective on life :)
- roc 16y ago
  > They were pretty surprised to hear that bullies act out of insecurity. "We hate in others what we see in ourselves." I find that old chestnut rings more true every time I find my ire rising.
  - digitaltothem 16y ago
    Good point. I kinda like the one that goes: "We are what we speak". If I don`t have something nice and encouraging to say, then I just don`t anything. I give my best to accomplish this.
rosser 16y ago
Condescending feedback says more about the speaker than the listener. I'd take this even further: feedback, period, says more about the person offering it than the person it's about. Hell, anything anyone does, whether about or in response to someone else or not, is about the person doing it. If I say something and you lambaste me for it, that's about you; I'm just a convenient excuse for you to manifest your dick-nature. If I do something and you give me props for it, that's about you; I'm just an opportunity for you to share another aspect of yourself. Love someone or hate someone, what you say or do has nothing whatsoever to do with that person. It's all about you, all the time, every time. Full stop. Life gets a lot easier when you remember that other people's behavior is about them acting out their individual dramas, in whatever form that happens to take. Sure, some kinds of responses feel better than others; everyone loves to be praised, and probably doesn't much like being excoriated. That's exactly the point, though: how you feel about what someone else does — and how you respond to it — are about you, not that person, and not what they said or did. That person, and what they say or do, are just excuses (or opportunities) for you to manifest your baser or higher nature. We've all been pricks, and we've all been saints; we always have a choice in how we behave. So stand up and take responsibility for yourself. That doesn't mean you have to stop being a raging asshole, if that's what you want to be. But you made that choice, and re-make it every time you're rude to someone, denigrate them, or talk shit about them. Own it. And if someone's an asshole to you, instead of being an asshole back, think about how much it must suck to be a person who feels the need to go around being an asshole at other people.
leif 16y ago
There's a thin line between constructive criticism and a backhanded compliment, though.
protomyth 16y ago
I would say that some fields use it as a tool to weed out those that cannot act under pressure. There are some activities in life where if you cannot deal with condescending feedback then you probably cannot work in the field at all.
- ezy 16y ago
  This seems circular to me.
  - protomyth 16y ago
    No, not really. If, while teaching the basics, they break under the criticism then it isn't worth their going on.
gaius 16y ago
A tablespoon of whisky in their milk, that usually does the trick.
HSO 16y ago
judging from media reports/biographies, a lot of our "tech heroes" would then have counted as "insecure"?! don't know about that. i've gotten to know some people who i consider brilliant or at least very, very good at what they do and, judging from my own small sample, they've been all over the place in terms of manners/considerateness. i don't think this is a valid classification scheme...
- timknauf 16y ago
  You can be very, very good at what you do and still be insecure.
  - reinhardt 16y ago
    This sounds almost like a tautology or a "no true Scotsman" argument. If "insecure" <=> "condescending" by definition or "well, if he's bad mannered he can't be really secure", there's not much to argue.
  - HSO 16y ago
    true, but the juxtaposition should then have been between "insecure" and "secure", not between "insecure" (personality trait) and "excellent" (skill level).
    - kunley 16y ago
      It's possible that you just may be insecure about your comfort zone of categorizing things ;)
  - jarin 16y ago
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome
Splatchar 16y ago
So true. And to develop the argument further, why are so many geeks insecure and nervous, as they then must be, assuming the OP is correct? I think it's because they are smart. Smart minds make a lot of internal noise, commenting loudly on every experience, making it harder for geeks to 'hear' their own finer feelings, including conscience. This makes them nervous, insecure and guilty. The guilt is unbearable, and they unconsciously attempt to project it onto other geeks with things like condescending feedback. However, the good news is that there is a minority of geeks who have broken through this barrier, e.g. by meditation. They are a formidable sect, possessing both Bene Gesserit and Mentat powers.
tybris 16y ago
You could probably make your excellent personas a little less cynical. In cases where you want to point out a flaw it's best to not act as if you think you know everything. Start your sentences with "you could probably".
azal 16y ago
Its surprising how rarely you find any of the mentioned Excellent's in daily life

by edw519 16y ago

thorax 16y ago

I am insecure in every area you mention above, and I do everything in my power to approach advice exactly as you phrase it. Perhaps this is because I am insecure (all I know is that no one really knows everything), I choose to phrase things that way, often also seeing if they know something I didn't. I don't think there's as close a tie between condescension and insecurity-- but perhaps in some cases that happens. I'd rather people just never be condescending, regardless of what position they're coming from.

knowtheory 16y ago

Vociferous opposition is not the same as condescension, though. There are some people who care deeply about a subject and just lack social tact. They'll jump on you for a variety of subjects, but they don't have ill intent. Then there are the people who are dicks and want to crush people who they disagree with. It's the point at which one starts displaying schadenfreude and denigrating others that the line has been crossed.

AndrewDucker 16y ago
People who lack social tact need to be taught it. They aren't stupid, generally, they can be taught, if it's made clear that they must. Treating people badly is a great way to drive out those who don't have the ability to deal with flamewars and shoutiness. And many of those people have a lot to contribute.
- wtfffr 16y ago
  People won't learn that when sites are run horribly, as this one is. My first interaction on this site consisted of somebody making a snarky personal attack, which got upvoted. The person apologized via email, but pg refused to remove any of it. Apparently it was important to pg that some snarky, bullshit, personal attack remain present, visible and upvoted, even though both I and the person who made it wanted it gone. So seriously... with leadership like that, how the fuck can anybody expect people to be nice?
- ahoyhere 16y ago
  They should learn it themselves. There are books & training courses on the subject. But people rarely seek these out because they are so defensive about their deficiencies that they turn even those into a contention -- they say "this is just the way I am, take it or leave it."
  - stcredzero 16y ago
    Think of it as evolution in action. (And I shall take this whole post as a call to clean up my act.)
    - nerfhammer 16y ago
      So all we have to do it just wait a few generations, and...
      - mgns 16y ago
        Hopefully just one generation as being an ass may stop them from getting along with the opposite sex and reproduce...

dexen 16y ago

Each of the `Excellent xxx' response you give differs in two important hitches from the `Insecure xxx': 1) it requires much common context, understanding, experience. Everybody will understand a ``this sucks'' response, regardless of the reasoning behind it being clear. Understanding a, and building better solution on, an involved response requires common understanding, common experience, between the parties of communication. (What the heck is a 4/2 split? I dunno, honestly; this response only serves as a distraction to me at that very moment). Lacking common experience is a communication barrier hard to climb, thus frustrating. It may be that very precise subjects (like computer science) provide for more such barriers, thus more frustration. 2) the ``This sucks'' response lets you vent anger. Now there are two conflicting theories about controlling strong emotions... ;-)

stuhacking 16y ago
2) the ``This sucks'' response lets you vent anger. Now there are two conflicting theories about controlling strong emotions... ;-) I realise that this is intended for humour, but more seriously, I have experienced much better anger reduction when actually chatting amiably with someone and making a friendly recommendation. ``This sucks'' just passes on the negativity to others.
- gnaritas 16y ago
  > I have experienced much better anger reduction when actually chatting amiably Great for you, but not everyone is you; some people need to vent to feel better.
  - joliss 16y ago
    I seem to recall that there are studies showing that venting isn't an effective tool to make you feel better, despite the popular "catharsis" meme. I can't find them right now, but here's a quote: http://www.bakadesuyo.com/a-few-more-things-pop-psychology-has-been-wro http://www.bakadesuyo.com/a-few-more-things-pop-psychology-h... In any case, if somebody feels the need to vent, I hope they don't do it where I end up reading them. ^^

MrJagil 16y ago

Can someone please explain the logic behind "condescending feedback = insecurity"? And I mean that sincerely. I have been thinking about this for a long time now, and I just cannot come up with any supporting evidence to explain the corelation. It might sound like a stupid request, but I think it is a hard argument to make totally water proof.

DanI-S 16y ago
I see it this way: The only reason to give condescending feedback is to demonstrate your superiority over the person you're criticizing. If you truly wanted to be helpful, you'd be giving helpful feedback. If you were truly confident in your own abilities, you wouldn't feel the need to demonstrate your superiority.
- bgurupra 16y ago
  I think condescending feedback = insecurity is a bit of a generalization.Maybe sometimes it is true but not all the time - for example Linus' "feedback" on CVS was pretty condescending but I doubt that was because he was insecure
  - DanI-S 16y ago
    It's definitely a generalization; it just seems to be a reasonably reliable one :). I suppose the insecurity doesn't have to be about domain knowledge, either - it could be about communication skills. Perhaps some people giving condescending feedback don't feel like they are able to communicate in any other way. They experience the desire to contribute, but aren't confident in their tutoring skills and don't want to risk sounding stupid by bungling an explanation. This is admittedly pure speculation...
  - entreprenewb 16y ago
    And let's not confuse real condescension with blunt truth that's interpreted as condescension but is not inherently malicious. I think a lot of people may seem condescending because they are more direct than most people are accustomed to.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

elptacek 16y ago

It has taken me half a lifetime to grow a "thick skin" against comments like this. It's lame to admit, but I've abandoned half a dozen really cool projects in the face of feedback like this. Being a parent has made me realize that there's a word for people who react this way: bully. In teaching my kids to cope with it, I'm teaching myself, too. They were pretty surprised to hear that bullies act out of insecurity.

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
dools 16y ago
There was a post here a little while ago from the 37signals blog "There's no room for just shitting on someone else's work" in response to the "read the fucking hig" website. In that post, the author says "... they're creating something, and that's awesome". I became a parent (nearly) 1 year ago and when I read this phrase it really put this whole "geek wars" thing into perspective. If my child grows up to be passionate enough to create anything I'll be so pleased. I wouldn't even care if it were good or bad. There are so many worse things that a person can do in the world than create things, we should all just be heaping praise on each other for even trying to do something great. Being a parent does wonders for your perspective on life :)
roc 16y ago
> They were pretty surprised to hear that bullies act out of insecurity. "We hate in others what we see in ourselves." I find that old chestnut rings more true every time I find my ire rising.
- digitaltothem 16y ago
  Good point. I kinda like the one that goes: "We are what we speak". If I don`t have something nice and encouraging to say, then I just don`t anything. I give my best to accomplish this.

rosser 16y ago

Condescending feedback says more about the speaker than the listener. I'd take this even further: feedback, period, says more about the person offering it than the person it's about. Hell, anything anyone does, whether about or in response to someone else or not, is about the person doing it. If I say something and you lambaste me for it, that's about you; I'm just a convenient excuse for you to manifest your dick-nature. If I do something and you give me props for it, that's about you; I'm just an opportunity for you to share another aspect of yourself. Love someone or hate someone, what you say or do has nothing whatsoever to do with that person. It's all about you, all the time, every time. Full stop. Life gets a lot easier when you remember that other people's behavior is about them acting out their individual dramas, in whatever form that happens to take. Sure, some kinds of responses feel better than others; everyone loves to be praised, and probably doesn't much like being excoriated. That's exactly the point, though: how you feel about what someone else does — and how you respond to it — are about you, not that person, and not what they said or did. That person, and what they say or do, are just excuses (or opportunities) for you to manifest your baser or higher nature. We've all been pricks, and we've all been saints; we always have a choice in how we behave. So stand up and take responsibility for yourself. That doesn't mean you have to stop being a raging asshole, if that's what you want to be. But you made that choice, and re-make it every time you're rude to someone, denigrate them, or talk shit about them. Own it. And if someone's an asshole to you, instead of being an asshole back, think about how much it must suck to be a person who feels the need to go around being an asshole at other people.

leif 16y ago

There's a thin line between constructive criticism and a backhanded compliment, though.

protomyth 16y ago

I would say that some fields use it as a tool to weed out those that cannot act under pressure. There are some activities in life where if you cannot deal with condescending feedback then you probably cannot work in the field at all.

ezy 16y ago
This seems circular to me.
- protomyth 16y ago
  No, not really. If, while teaching the basics, they break under the criticism then it isn't worth their going on.

gaius 16y ago

A tablespoon of whisky in their milk, that usually does the trick.

HSO 16y ago

judging from media reports/biographies, a lot of our "tech heroes" would then have counted as "insecure"?! don't know about that. i've gotten to know some people who i consider brilliant or at least very, very good at what they do and, judging from my own small sample, they've been all over the place in terms of manners/considerateness. i don't think this is a valid classification scheme...

timknauf 16y ago
You can be very, very good at what you do and still be insecure.
- reinhardt 16y ago
  This sounds almost like a tautology or a "no true Scotsman" argument. If "insecure" <=> "condescending" by definition or "well, if he's bad mannered he can't be really secure", there's not much to argue.
- HSO 16y ago
  true, but the juxtaposition should then have been between "insecure" and "secure", not between "insecure" (personality trait) and "excellent" (skill level).
  - kunley 16y ago
    It's possible that you just may be insecure about your comfort zone of categorizing things ;)
- jarin 16y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome

Splatchar 16y ago

So true. And to develop the argument further, why are so many geeks insecure and nervous, as they then must be, assuming the OP is correct? I think it's because they are smart. Smart minds make a lot of internal noise, commenting loudly on every experience, making it harder for geeks to 'hear' their own finer feelings, including conscience. This makes them nervous, insecure and guilty. The guilt is unbearable, and they unconsciously attempt to project it onto other geeks with things like condescending feedback. However, the good news is that there is a minority of geeks who have broken through this barrier, e.g. by meditation. They are a formidable sect, possessing both Bene Gesserit and Mentat powers.

tybris 16y ago

You could probably make your excellent personas a little less cynical. In cases where you want to point out a flaw it's best to not act as if you think you know everything. Start your sentences with "you could probably".

azal 16y ago

Its surprising how rarely you find any of the mentioned Excellent's in daily life