15 ms·

GNU Free Call has been announced (Skype-like software)

204 points by Spakman 16y ago

w1ntermute 16y ago
What's the reason for starting a new project when you could build on existing ones like Ekiga instead?
- s2r2 16y ago
  Actually, they are building on existing ones, they extend GNU SIP Witch: http://www.gnutelephony.org/index.php/GNU_SIP_Witch http://www.gnutelephony.org/index.php/GNU_SIP_Witch
- slug 16y ago
  Ekiga is great, I actually prefer it to skype, as I can more easily set video/audio quality and it uses an open and standard protocol. They have binaries for any major linux distro , mac and windows, and it's fairly easy to compile from source if needed. The NAT traversal improved tremendously by the transparently use of stun, no configuration necessary. Give me my SIP IPv6 address and ekiga would work just fine for everyone, no need for P2P, except perhaps behind very restrictive firewalls.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - mdaniel 16y ago
    As an aside, I haven't had a similar experience as you have with Ekiga. I would not recommend it for my family members, for example. Don't forget that Skype's UX is only one fraction of why people like or don't like Skype. The codec they use is often vastly superior for "normal people" situations than even commercial SIP clients, or the WebEx-es of the world. I don't doubt that the Skype network topology has something to do with it, but I am (perhaps erroneously) lumping those features together for the purposes of this discussion.
    - slug 16y ago
      Well, http://ekiga.org/ekiga-softphone-features#audio_codecs http://ekiga.org/ekiga-softphone-features#audio_codecs and http://ekiga.org/ekiga-softphone-features#video_codecs http://ekiga.org/ekiga-softphone-features#video_codecs might change your mind. You can choose between these codecs and speex is particularly good. Not only that, it uses less CPU than skype. I often find audio and video quality of ekiga superior to skype. It's understandable that it might be difficult to convince someone to switch, as the other side must have a sip account and skype account creation is particularly easy, but in terms of audio and video quality, I think ekiga wins, specially the latest versions. I also run a private mumble server which uses speex and the audio quality is amazing, only limited by the available bandwidth.
ecaron 16y ago
The FSF has a great article explaining why this is necessary, and how the existing offerings come into play (and where they fall short): http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/priority-projects/#skypereplacement http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/priority-projects/#skypereplace...
- pclark 16y ago
  Guh. I go to download Ekiga to see how it compared to Skype, and on Mac they want me to download source and compile it? Seriously?
  - sciurus 16y ago
    A compatible (H.323 and SIP) alternative to Ekiga for OS X is XMeeting. http://xmeeting.sourceforge.net/ http://xmeeting.sourceforge.net/
gte910h 16y ago
Generally speaking, I find some of the things the FSF worries about groanworthy. However, as a person who talks to people outside the US all the time (therefore, can be legally spied on by NSA, et al, most likely), it is a little annoying I am probably being recorded at least some of the time when on skype (although the most they're going to do is hear about some iPad app specs a few months early). For people who talk about more important things (say, rebel troop movements in Libya), I think a secure communications channel such as a GFC would be a fantastic thing, and I'd surely make an account to encourage that.
pclark 16y ago
The sad fact of the matter is most people do not give a hoot about software being open. I honestly do not think you stand a chance competing against Skype, it is so insanely great and wide spread. I'd be impressed if they can actually make the UI/UX better than the latest (horrendous) Skype client. It's like the Diaspora of VoIP.
- Semiapies 16y ago
  In the end, I think it's more important that the means of software production are open and freely available. This allows people alternatives to proprietary software that isn't insanely great - like Firefox helped a lot of people escape IE. If they've done nothing else, the FSF has accomplished that.
- chadaustin 16y ago
  Maybe true, but give them a chance at least... See firefox, inkscape as successful examples.
  - pclark 16y ago
    neither of those have network effects, they can thrive in oligopoly markets, I think that communication is a winner takes all (ironically why you want it to be an open standard, but such is innovation from startups)
    - thisisfmu 16y ago
      skype alternatives do have a (small) chance despite strong network effects. 1/ policy makers do not like running a third-party closed-source obfuscated binary with undefined behavior aggressively evading firewalls inside their business or country (in the case of China). 2/ the network effects are not nearly as strong as, for instance, ebay's. i do not care about being able to call random strangers on skype, only about my contacts. the scope of the network effect is to some extent that of a social group, not an entire market.
      - 16y ago
Klonoar 16y ago
I Hurd about this one awhile back. ...it's gonna go absolutely nowhere. Next please.
d_c 16y ago
A bit late, unfortunately.
shareme 16y ago
My bias: I was being recruited by the firm Phil Zimmerman owns to develop mobile clients for competitor secure SIP/P2P platform 8 months ago. I think it has a better chance than zfone did or does: 1. Built in desktop 'platform', ie market, the Linux distros. 2. Skype and Mobile Operators will make enough potential customers enemies on mobile that any competitor who gets a mobile product out the door will do well.. I like their desktop approach better than zfone..as zfone wanted to piggyback on desktop clients rather than come up with their own P2p platform.
tzury 16y ago
You guys at gnu.org shall consider taking freeSwitch and rewrite the parts which are licensed under non GPL compliant license, especially some of the voice codecs. FreeSwitch is so well debugged and tested, and been around for long, starting something new reminds me that attempt published here two days ago about some hackers which were claiming of authoring a better nmap replacement in few weeks or so.
nathanb 16y ago
Real hackers ship. Developing a project under an open source license should never be an excuse for vaporware, but unfortunately it often is. If GNU Free Call turns out to be any good--and the bar for being better than Skype on Linux or Android is low enough to be subterranean--I'll gladly use it, but I'm having a lot of trouble getting excited at this point.
- pjscott 16y ago
  That was my first reaction, but it looks like these guys know what they're talking about and have a feasible plan for getting something useful made. That's a far cry from working code, but it is reason for cautious hope.
- mbrubeck 16y ago
  "Developing a project under an open source license should never be an excuse for vaporware" Actually, it should. If you want to have meaningful external/community participation in a project, you need to involve the community from the earliest stages. (Sorry, I'm a bit sensitive to this complaint after working for Mozilla. Apparently some people would rather we do our planning and development in secret, rather than allow community access to our design and product discussions.)
  - nathanb 16y ago
    Mozilla started off with a compelling product and provided very clearly-defined ways for the community at large to contribute to the design and implementation. Does design by committee (or, worse, design by community) ever work? You are likely more qualified to answer this question than I am, but in my experience it seems like the only time that it can work is when the project has very strong guiding principles and a shepherd (or small number of shepherds) willing to say "your feature/idea is cool, but it doesn't fit right now". Everybody has a different idea of what a Skype replacement should do. I want something which will run on Linux or Android and use my Google Voice for calling in. Maybe others want something which will allow them to have conversations of a religious or seditious nature in countries which don't allow that without worrying about getting caught. Others use it for phone interviews with video because the user experience is better than standard telephony. Still others just want to talk to relatives in other countries without paying a fortune. Which ones should the project focus on first? Obviously I'm going to be passionate about my preferred use cases, but if I'm in the minority then from a traction and market share standpoint it makes sense to work on other use cases first. But I don't even see a lot of thought around this, just a wish list of high-level features. In five years, maybe I'll be using GNU telephony all the time. Or maybe it will have failed to gain traction or the developers will have gotten bogged down trying to implement everything at once or chasing rabbits down community rabbit holes. Show me a product and I'll be excited. Show me a press release and I'll be cynical. </unnecessarily long rant>
loup-vaillant 16y ago
For those who think it won't work: wait for the Freedom Box. It could do wonders if it happens, and the odds look good. The Freedom Box can happen with current technology, yet I often feel people treat it like they do the Singularity. Are we so poor at rationality, or did I miss some reason why the Freedom Box should fail?

204 points by Spakman 16y ago

w1ntermute 16y ago

What's the reason for starting a new project when you could build on existing ones like Ekiga instead?

s2r2 16y ago
Actually, they are building on existing ones, they extend GNU SIP Witch: http://www.gnutelephony.org/index.php/GNU_SIP_Witch http://www.gnutelephony.org/index.php/GNU_SIP_Witch
slug 16y ago
Ekiga is great, I actually prefer it to skype, as I can more easily set video/audio quality and it uses an open and standard protocol. They have binaries for any major linux distro , mac and windows, and it's fairly easy to compile from source if needed. The NAT traversal improved tremendously by the transparently use of stun, no configuration necessary. Give me my SIP IPv6 address and ekiga would work just fine for everyone, no need for P2P, except perhaps behind very restrictive firewalls.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- mdaniel 16y ago
  As an aside, I haven't had a similar experience as you have with Ekiga. I would not recommend it for my family members, for example. Don't forget that Skype's UX is only one fraction of why people like or don't like Skype. The codec they use is often vastly superior for "normal people" situations than even commercial SIP clients, or the WebEx-es of the world. I don't doubt that the Skype network topology has something to do with it, but I am (perhaps erroneously) lumping those features together for the purposes of this discussion.
  - slug 16y ago
    Well, http://ekiga.org/ekiga-softphone-features#audio_codecs http://ekiga.org/ekiga-softphone-features#audio_codecs and http://ekiga.org/ekiga-softphone-features#video_codecs http://ekiga.org/ekiga-softphone-features#video_codecs might change your mind. You can choose between these codecs and speex is particularly good. Not only that, it uses less CPU than skype. I often find audio and video quality of ekiga superior to skype. It's understandable that it might be difficult to convince someone to switch, as the other side must have a sip account and skype account creation is particularly easy, but in terms of audio and video quality, I think ekiga wins, specially the latest versions. I also run a private mumble server which uses speex and the audio quality is amazing, only limited by the available bandwidth.

ecaron 16y ago

The FSF has a great article explaining why this is necessary, and how the existing offerings come into play (and where they fall short): http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/priority-projects/#skypereplacement http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/priority-projects/#skypereplace...

pclark 16y ago
Guh. I go to download Ekiga to see how it compared to Skype, and on Mac they want me to download source and compile it? Seriously?
- sciurus 16y ago
  A compatible (H.323 and SIP) alternative to Ekiga for OS X is XMeeting. http://xmeeting.sourceforge.net/ http://xmeeting.sourceforge.net/

gte910h 16y ago

Generally speaking, I find some of the things the FSF worries about groanworthy. However, as a person who talks to people outside the US all the time (therefore, can be legally spied on by NSA, et al, most likely), it is a little annoying I am probably being recorded at least some of the time when on skype (although the most they're going to do is hear about some iPad app specs a few months early). For people who talk about more important things (say, rebel troop movements in Libya), I think a secure communications channel such as a GFC would be a fantastic thing, and I'd surely make an account to encourage that.

pclark 16y ago

The sad fact of the matter is most people do not give a hoot about software being open. I honestly do not think you stand a chance competing against Skype, it is so insanely great and wide spread. I'd be impressed if they can actually make the UI/UX better than the latest (horrendous) Skype client. It's like the Diaspora of VoIP.

Semiapies 16y ago
In the end, I think it's more important that the means of software production are open and freely available. This allows people alternatives to proprietary software that isn't insanely great - like Firefox helped a lot of people escape IE. If they've done nothing else, the FSF has accomplished that.
chadaustin 16y ago
Maybe true, but give them a chance at least... See firefox, inkscape as successful examples.
- pclark 16y ago
  neither of those have network effects, they can thrive in oligopoly markets, I think that communication is a winner takes all (ironically why you want it to be an open standard, but such is innovation from startups)
  - thisisfmu 16y ago
    skype alternatives do have a (small) chance despite strong network effects. 1/ policy makers do not like running a third-party closed-source obfuscated binary with undefined behavior aggressively evading firewalls inside their business or country (in the case of China). 2/ the network effects are not nearly as strong as, for instance, ebay's. i do not care about being able to call random strangers on skype, only about my contacts. the scope of the network effect is to some extent that of a social group, not an entire market.
    - 16y ago

Klonoar 16y ago

I Hurd about this one awhile back. ...it's gonna go absolutely nowhere. Next please.

d_c 16y ago

A bit late, unfortunately.

shareme 16y ago

My bias: I was being recruited by the firm Phil Zimmerman owns to develop mobile clients for competitor secure SIP/P2P platform 8 months ago. I think it has a better chance than zfone did or does: 1. Built in desktop 'platform', ie market, the Linux distros. 2. Skype and Mobile Operators will make enough potential customers enemies on mobile that any competitor who gets a mobile product out the door will do well.. I like their desktop approach better than zfone..as zfone wanted to piggyback on desktop clients rather than come up with their own P2p platform.

tzury 16y ago

You guys at gnu.org shall consider taking freeSwitch and rewrite the parts which are licensed under non GPL compliant license, especially some of the voice codecs. FreeSwitch is so well debugged and tested, and been around for long, starting something new reminds me that attempt published here two days ago about some hackers which were claiming of authoring a better nmap replacement in few weeks or so.

nathanb 16y ago

Real hackers ship. Developing a project under an open source license should never be an excuse for vaporware, but unfortunately it often is. If GNU Free Call turns out to be any good--and the bar for being better than Skype on Linux or Android is low enough to be subterranean--I'll gladly use it, but I'm having a lot of trouble getting excited at this point.

pjscott 16y ago
That was my first reaction, but it looks like these guys know what they're talking about and have a feasible plan for getting something useful made. That's a far cry from working code, but it is reason for cautious hope.
mbrubeck 16y ago
"Developing a project under an open source license should never be an excuse for vaporware" Actually, it should. If you want to have meaningful external/community participation in a project, you need to involve the community from the earliest stages. (Sorry, I'm a bit sensitive to this complaint after working for Mozilla. Apparently some people would rather we do our planning and development in secret, rather than allow community access to our design and product discussions.)
- nathanb 16y ago
  Mozilla started off with a compelling product and provided very clearly-defined ways for the community at large to contribute to the design and implementation. Does design by committee (or, worse, design by community) ever work? You are likely more qualified to answer this question than I am, but in my experience it seems like the only time that it can work is when the project has very strong guiding principles and a shepherd (or small number of shepherds) willing to say "your feature/idea is cool, but it doesn't fit right now". Everybody has a different idea of what a Skype replacement should do. I want something which will run on Linux or Android and use my Google Voice for calling in. Maybe others want something which will allow them to have conversations of a religious or seditious nature in countries which don't allow that without worrying about getting caught. Others use it for phone interviews with video because the user experience is better than standard telephony. Still others just want to talk to relatives in other countries without paying a fortune. Which ones should the project focus on first? Obviously I'm going to be passionate about my preferred use cases, but if I'm in the minority then from a traction and market share standpoint it makes sense to work on other use cases first. But I don't even see a lot of thought around this, just a wish list of high-level features. In five years, maybe I'll be using GNU telephony all the time. Or maybe it will have failed to gain traction or the developers will have gotten bogged down trying to implement everything at once or chasing rabbits down community rabbit holes. Show me a product and I'll be excited. Show me a press release and I'll be cynical. </unnecessarily long rant>

loup-vaillant 16y ago

For those who think it won't work: wait for the Freedom Box. It could do wonders if it happens, and the odds look good. The Freedom Box can happen with current technology, yet I often feel people treat it like they do the Singularity. Are we so poor at rationality, or did I miss some reason why the Freedom Box should fail?