6 ms·

The Bitter Secret of ‘Wormwood’ (2018)

14 points by benbreen 6y ago

AndrewBissell 6y ago
A prior thread on MK-ULTRA: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21165137 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21165137 The Frank Olson Project is an aggregation of a lot of the research Eric Olson did into the circumstances of his father's death: https://frankolsonproject.org/ https://frankolsonproject.org/
gwern 6y ago
So, like the 'real' account of the OBL raid or chemical weapons in Syria, another huge story being broken by Hersh based on unverifiable anonymous insider information which no one else can confirm. No wonder the New Yorker hasn't published anything by him in half a decade and he had to move to LRB (and not always even then)...
- AndrewBissell 6y ago
  Hersh's skeptical account of the 2017 Syrian chemical attack has been corroborated by the OPCW Douma leaks.
  - kthxbye123 6y ago
    This is a serious misrepresentation of the actual content of the leaks, propagated by a gallery of pro-Assad freelance writers and regime mouthpieces. In fact, the "leaks" never seriously contradicted the OPCW's conclusion.
    - tanseydavid 6y ago
      Can you provide any links to support that assertion? Not trolling -- I am just curious about how you arrive at such a conclusion.
  - gwern 6y ago
    'corroborated', eh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douma_chemical_attack#OPCW_investigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douma_chemical_attack#OPCW_inv... Well, that is a word one could use. It certainly is a word that one could use. Incidentally, note that it was leaked through the good offices of a Russian cutout better known for selective leaking of DNC (but not RNC) emails and forged Macron emails. Sure is excellent company Sy is keeping these days.
    - AndrewBissell 6y ago
      Ah yes, the old "never mind whether these leaks are true, look where they came from!" And of course god forbid we might exercise some skepticism of our own intelligence community or Crowdstrike's conclusions on that front. I guess it's unfortunate that the RNC had better opsec than the DNC during 2016, I certainly would have been interested to know what they were sending back and forth during their primary. Whatever it was it probably would not have done much damage to Trump's campaign though. It's really amazing what an effective sheepdogging campaign Russiagate turned out to be. Sy Hersh reached some conclusions which align in some way with what Russia might want, therefore MK-ULTRA wasn't really a thing or the government wasn't involved in Frank Olson's death?
      - gwern 6y ago
        > Ah yes, the old "never mind whether these leaks are true, look where they came from!" Particularly important a criticism given how selective leaks can paint a very different picture by leaving out all the responses and reasons the supposed whistleblowing never made it into the report, on top of the past track record in releasing outright forged documents. You're leaping to wild conclusions on the basis of far less than half of a conversation which may never have happened. > I guess it's unfortunate that the RNC had better opsec than the DNC during 2016 If you've read any profile of the muppets that ran the RNC or the Trump campaign, you know the RNC most definitely did not. > therefore MK-ULTRA wasn't really a thing or the government wasn't involved in Frank Olson's death? No one here said anything remotely like either of those. MK-ULTRA really was a thing. The government really was involved in Olson's death. By... administering LSD.
ncmncm 6y ago
The biggest lie about the program is that it ended. The second biggest lie is that it was about doing crazy shit, and failed. It was a PSY-OPS attack on the American public that worked perfectly: To this day people believe the lies about what the program was.

14 points by benbreen 6y ago

A prior thread on MK-ULTRA: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21165137 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21165137 The Frank Olson Project is an aggregation of a lot of the research Eric Olson did into the circumstances of his father's death: https://frankolsonproject.org/ https://frankolsonproject.org/

gwern 6y ago

So, like the 'real' account of the OBL raid or chemical weapons in Syria, another huge story being broken by Hersh based on unverifiable anonymous insider information which no one else can confirm. No wonder the New Yorker hasn't published anything by him in half a decade and he had to move to LRB (and not always even then)...

AndrewBissell 6y ago
Hersh's skeptical account of the 2017 Syrian chemical attack has been corroborated by the OPCW Douma leaks.
- kthxbye123 6y ago
  This is a serious misrepresentation of the actual content of the leaks, propagated by a gallery of pro-Assad freelance writers and regime mouthpieces. In fact, the "leaks" never seriously contradicted the OPCW's conclusion.
  - tanseydavid 6y ago
    Can you provide any links to support that assertion? Not trolling -- I am just curious about how you arrive at such a conclusion.
- gwern 6y ago
  'corroborated', eh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douma_chemical_attack#OPCW_investigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douma_chemical_attack#OPCW_inv... Well, that is a word one could use. It certainly is a word that one could use. Incidentally, note that it was leaked through the good offices of a Russian cutout better known for selective leaking of DNC (but not RNC) emails and forged Macron emails. Sure is excellent company Sy is keeping these days.
  - AndrewBissell 6y ago
    Ah yes, the old "never mind whether these leaks are true, look where they came from!" And of course god forbid we might exercise some skepticism of our own intelligence community or Crowdstrike's conclusions on that front. I guess it's unfortunate that the RNC had better opsec than the DNC during 2016, I certainly would have been interested to know what they were sending back and forth during their primary. Whatever it was it probably would not have done much damage to Trump's campaign though. It's really amazing what an effective sheepdogging campaign Russiagate turned out to be. Sy Hersh reached some conclusions which align in some way with what Russia might want, therefore MK-ULTRA wasn't really a thing or the government wasn't involved in Frank Olson's death?
    - gwern 6y ago
      > Ah yes, the old "never mind whether these leaks are true, look where they came from!" Particularly important a criticism given how selective leaks can paint a very different picture by leaving out all the responses and reasons the supposed whistleblowing never made it into the report, on top of the past track record in releasing outright forged documents. You're leaping to wild conclusions on the basis of far less than half of a conversation which may never have happened. > I guess it's unfortunate that the RNC had better opsec than the DNC during 2016 If you've read any profile of the muppets that ran the RNC or the Trump campaign, you know the RNC most definitely did not. > therefore MK-ULTRA wasn't really a thing or the government wasn't involved in Frank Olson's death? No one here said anything remotely like either of those. MK-ULTRA really was a thing. The government really was involved in Olson's death. By... administering LSD.

ncmncm 6y ago

The biggest lie about the program is that it ended. The second biggest lie is that it was about doing crazy shit, and failed. It was a PSY-OPS attack on the American public that worked perfectly: To this day people believe the lies about what the program was.