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I can tell you that discrimination against women of common child-bearing ages for lower-income jobs is still common in countries where full benefits exist. In

I can tell you that discrimination against women of common child-bearing ages for lower-income jobs is still common in countries where full benefits exist. In Canada, companies refuse to hire women in certain positions because the maternity leave is 1-2 years, and the disruption of having to train and then replace someone can be painful. As an anecdote, my last company had 3 accountants in 3 years because each one would come in, work for a year, and then take 2 year maternity. It became impossible to handle the stability for a complex position like that. They ultimately refused to hire women, and the man in that job has now been there 5 years.

thatcat 6y ago
Wouldn't the first ones maternity be over by the time the second one took maternity?
- koheripbal 6y ago
  Yes, but often they simply decide not to return to work at all.
  - triceratops 6y ago
    Why not?
    - jjeaff 6y ago
      It's pretty common for women to decide to become a full time stay at home mom after having a kid. But naturally, you would use up all of your maternity leave before making that final decision.
  - godelski 6y ago
    That sounds like an additional variable that's part of a coupled system.
pyuser583 6y ago
On the flip side, it’s common for teachers to time pregnancy so the due date will be (end_of_school_year - maternity_leave_duration) so that they’ll get an “extra” three months leave.
- rconti 6y ago
  In Canada, or in the US? My sister's a professor about to have a child in a midwestern US state, and you effectively cannot get maternity leave during the school year.
  - pyuser583 6y ago
    US. I was thinking high school. I taught high school and got paternity leave of a month. Private school though.
  - jjeaff 6y ago
    It would be state by state but in a lot of states, teachers are able to build up a lot of paid sick days which could be used for maternity leave if needed.
ggrrhh_ta 6y ago
Well, the leave should be distributed exactly in the same amount by the persons responsible for the child and should be of compulsory execution by both, exactly as if you have an accident requiring hospitalisation that prevents you from doing any work. That is, taking care of a dependent until a reasonable age for daycare (which, in my opinion should be around at least 8 months) should be an obligation of the society on the well-being of an innocent dependent human being. And if people worry on the economoc side, think that people taking the responsibility of bringing up minors contribute to economic flourishing in additional spending on goods and services and in providing the payers of the debt we are putting on them to pay to sustain our current and future well-being.
romwell 6y ago
>discrimination against women of common child-bearing ages [..] is still common in countries where full benefits exist. What you just provided is an argument for parental leave. Arguably, the benefits are not full if male parents aren't eligible. This benefit shouldn't be defined by gender: - pregnancy-related benefits should be given to people who can get pregnant - parenthood-related benefits should be given to people who have just become parents (guardians of a newborn, etc). Anything other than this is a stop-gap non-solution, with aforementioned negative side effects.
- jjeaff 6y ago
  Even with equal paternity leave, I think we all know that it will be used at a much lower rate than maternity leave. And so will employers. It will still be much riskier to hire young women than men if turnover is costly.
  - romwell 6y ago
    > I think we all know that it will be used at a much lower rate It's a circular argument, since the main reason men aren't taking time off work to devote to parenting is the absence of such a leave. The reality is that if you provide the leave, everyone will use it. (I work for a company that provides one, though a rather short one). Ideally, the law will be written such that it's not an either-or scenario, and both parents could take the leave consecutively should they choose to (e.g. eligibility for a 6-month leave starting within 6 months of becoming a new parent). And this will make it much harder for companies to discriminate, as it spreads the risks out. Old men can (and do) father children too.
    - curryst 6y ago
      > It's a circular argument, since the main reason men aren't taking time off work to devote to parenting is the absence of such a leave. This is not true. Germany introduced paid paternity leave, and the rates that men use it is still far lower than the rates of maternity leave usage. [1] Other countries might differ, Google wasn't providing me very good results for paternity vs maternity leave usage. [1] https://www.jstor.org/stable/43488388?seq=1 https://www.jstor.org/stable/43488388?seq=1

thatcat 6y ago

Wouldn't the first ones maternity be over by the time the second one took maternity?

koheripbal 6y ago
Yes, but often they simply decide not to return to work at all.
- triceratops 6y ago
  Why not?
  - jjeaff 6y ago
    It's pretty common for women to decide to become a full time stay at home mom after having a kid. But naturally, you would use up all of your maternity leave before making that final decision.
- godelski 6y ago
  That sounds like an additional variable that's part of a coupled system.

pyuser583 6y ago

On the flip side, it’s common for teachers to time pregnancy so the due date will be (end_of_school_year - maternity_leave_duration) so that they’ll get an “extra” three months leave.

rconti 6y ago
In Canada, or in the US? My sister's a professor about to have a child in a midwestern US state, and you effectively cannot get maternity leave during the school year.
- pyuser583 6y ago
  US. I was thinking high school. I taught high school and got paternity leave of a month. Private school though.
- jjeaff 6y ago
  It would be state by state but in a lot of states, teachers are able to build up a lot of paid sick days which could be used for maternity leave if needed.

ggrrhh_ta 6y ago

Well, the leave should be distributed exactly in the same amount by the persons responsible for the child and should be of compulsory execution by both, exactly as if you have an accident requiring hospitalisation that prevents you from doing any work. That is, taking care of a dependent until a reasonable age for daycare (which, in my opinion should be around at least 8 months) should be an obligation of the society on the well-being of an innocent dependent human being. And if people worry on the economoc side, think that people taking the responsibility of bringing up minors contribute to economic flourishing in additional spending on goods and services and in providing the payers of the debt we are putting on them to pay to sustain our current and future well-being.

romwell 6y ago

>discrimination against women of common child-bearing ages [..] is still common in countries where full benefits exist. What you just provided is an argument for parental leave. Arguably, the benefits are not full if male parents aren't eligible. This benefit shouldn't be defined by gender: - pregnancy-related benefits should be given to people who can get pregnant - parenthood-related benefits should be given to people who have just become parents (guardians of a newborn, etc). Anything other than this is a stop-gap non-solution, with aforementioned negative side effects.

jjeaff 6y ago
Even with equal paternity leave, I think we all know that it will be used at a much lower rate than maternity leave. And so will employers. It will still be much riskier to hire young women than men if turnover is costly.
- romwell 6y ago
  > I think we all know that it will be used at a much lower rate It's a circular argument, since the main reason men aren't taking time off work to devote to parenting is the absence of such a leave. The reality is that if you provide the leave, everyone will use it. (I work for a company that provides one, though a rather short one). Ideally, the law will be written such that it's not an either-or scenario, and both parents could take the leave consecutively should they choose to (e.g. eligibility for a 6-month leave starting within 6 months of becoming a new parent). And this will make it much harder for companies to discriminate, as it spreads the risks out. Old men can (and do) father children too.
  - curryst 6y ago
    > It's a circular argument, since the main reason men aren't taking time off work to devote to parenting is the absence of such a leave. This is not true. Germany introduced paid paternity leave, and the rates that men use it is still far lower than the rates of maternity leave usage. [1] Other countries might differ, Google wasn't providing me very good results for paternity vs maternity leave usage. [1] https://www.jstor.org/stable/43488388?seq=1 https://www.jstor.org/stable/43488388?seq=1