6 ms·

As someone who has been on Linux a long time, but still has to support family members using Windows, here's my perspective: 1) Linux is usually easier in the "

by larrik 6y ago

As someone who has been on Linux a long time, but still has to support family members using Windows, here's my perspective: 1) Linux is usually easier in the "happy case", where everything works as it should, and it supports everything that the user needs. 2) Linux is way way way less likely to just change something and break the whole system while the user is sleeping. (This was REAL fun with my grandparents-in-law when their Dell All-in-One PC decided to upgrade itself from Windows 8.1 to Win10 despite Dell not having drivers for Win10 on their fancy custom monitor. I have to fix it for them every 6 months now.) 3) Searching the web for Windows solutions to your issues without being a computer expert feels like it has a >80% of infecting your computer with malware or getting you on the phone with a scammer. As a computer expert it's like 20% (not even zero!). 4) Fixing a Linux problem can be painful, but is often "copy and paste these config lines into this config". Arcane. 5) Fixing a Windows problem can involve having to go into the registry, which can't be copy/pasted and is extremely difficult AND dangerous. (There probably IS a way to copy/paste it, but I don't know it). 6) That said, it's easier to fall off the "happy path" and into real trouble in Linux. Fixing the issue by randomly clicking stuff is more likely to work in Windows than Linux. 7) It's way easier to find someone you know to help you on Windows than Linux, for now. 8) Gaming is still so much better on Windows, unfortunately, but the gap is closing. 9) The few times I've gotten family members to try Linux, they called me LESS often for support. Even on laptops! 10) Windows is becoming increasingly user hostile in every way. Ads, forced updates, forced settings changes, privacy issues, etc.

ClumsyPilot 6y ago
The update policy is the right choice. I have come across so many people who were he always was too clever by half and disabled security updates for all kinds of incoherent reasons. To "stop spying", "keep out NSA" or because they were afraid their cracked Windows version would go poof. Keeping billions of unpatched devices is disastrous form the point of view of malware.
- winkeltripel 6y ago
  having updates forced ON is the right choice. The mechanism used in windows 10 is very user hostile, and needlessly so.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
romwell 6y ago
>) Fixing a Windows problem can involve having to go into the registry, which can't be copy/pasted and is extremely difficult AND dangerous. (There probably IS a way to copy/paste it, but I don't know it). You absolutely can copy/paste registry edits. You paste the edit in a plain text .reg file and let the system patch it in for you. [1]https://www.howtogeek.com/382727/what-is-a-reg-file-and-how-do-i-open-one/ https://www.howtogeek.com/382727/what-is-a-reg-file-and-how-...
- kevingadd 6y ago
  I'd much rather run a narrowly scoped (diff-style) .reg file than unpack an entire configuration file from a .tar.gz and potentially blow away existing settings (which has happened to me more than once when installing system updates...)
  - stonewareslord 6y ago
    You can diff Unix configs with... diff I don't think it's ever advisible to tar -xf- -C / to fix a minor config issue. Just extract in tmp and diff -aru etc /etc
    - romwell 6y ago
      Sure, but with .reg files all you need to do is look at the contents of the .reg file to see what the diff is. The .reg file is the diff. Could not have been simpler. That's one upside of the registry being a database rather than a text file.
    - kevingadd 6y ago
      The outer post was talking about helping family members with their computers. They're gonna be dragging files around in the Linux equivalent of Explorer, not extracting stuff to tmp and manually applying diffs. So doing a 1:1 comparison on that basis, the Registry has the standard tools of the trade on Linux beat. There's certainly no particular reason you couldn't send someone a .sh file that manually applies your diffs to grandma's config file, I guess... FWIW I've had Ubuntu system updates blow away entire config files (helpfully setting the old one aside, at least) instead of applying diffs, but maybe that was the package maintainers being naughty.
mmsimanga 6y ago
7) It's way easier to find someone you know to help you on Windows than Linux, for now. I visit my parents once a year and always mark out a day to spend fixing/updating/removing junk on my dad's Windows laptop. Three times I installed Linux and when I came back the following year Windows was back on the laptop. The reason being people just know Windows where I am from and the moment they see Linux they feel that's the problem. Even if my dad is struggling to print something which has nothing to do with Linux, the first thing they do is remove Linux.
- Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
  I have installed Ubuntu to my mom and my wife's parents PCs and I never ever spent time having to worry about those computers again. They instantly learn where the browser, skype and printer menu is, and NEVER have a problem with a computer again. I also never worried about antiviruses and malware since. They are all in their 70s. No regular user has a problem with Ubuntu these days, but they regularly did have all kinds of trouble with Windows. I also run a business and for the last 13 years have had countless new hires (non developers) who have never seen Ubuntu and were productive on it instantly, without any problems with the OS ever. So it is simply not true that people "feel there is a problem the moment they see Linux". Ubuntu is the most friendly and reliable OS for a regular person out there, I say it from decades of experience.
  - mmsimanga 6y ago
    My intention was not to create impression that Linux is the problem. I myself have had similar experiences as you have had and use Ubuntu on all my PCs. However the reality is schools teach on Windows and just about all PCs and laptops sold in my home country have Windows installed. Apple products very rare and for the very rich. What this means is the average "computer guy" available to help my dad is typically a Windows person. If my dad says he can't print, the Windows guy cannot help him on Ubuntu so typically thinks the problem is Ubuntu. I am not saying the problem is Ubuntu, Ubuntu just isn't common in my home town.
    - 6y ago
craftinator 6y ago
This is an excellent breakdown of the differences. I've been looking for a pro/con list between the two that isn't heavily biased by my views, and I'll probably use this almost verbatim next time I have that discussion.
swiley 6y ago
>It's way easier to find someone you know to help you on Windows than Linux, for now. Really? Windows seems to be losing developer mindshare pretty fast and I’m not convinced this isn’t already the case. In college the capture the flag group had a serious problem finding people familiar with windows development and most junior software engineers I’ve met are much more familiar with GNU/Linux than windows.
- ketzu 6y ago
  Windows support for family members is not limited to developers, it includes the son, niece, brother or cousin that likes to game on their windows machine and is just more used to it. (And I am not sure about the mindshare declining rapidly either.)
  - ta17711771 6y ago
    "Just install Cee-Cee-Cleaner, bro."
Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
> 9) The few times I've gotten family members to try Linux, they called me LESS often for support. Even on laptops! This is so true. All my family members are on Ubuntu, and it just works without any support. For many many years. Sometimes when I visit them I click on update to the next LTS. By the time I have to leave it is updated and runs again for 2 more years.
- zozbot234 6y ago
  Debian Stable is king when it comes to the "just works" POV. They only release a new stable version after every known update bug has been ironed out, so the process is consistently flawless. Recent versions will even install security updates for you, with no user interaction required.
  - rurp 6y ago
    I really wish I had known about Debian Stable when I made the switch to Linux. My first Linux comp was a nightmare because the specific combo of Ubuntu (early 18) and hardware had a myriad of issues. I ended up switching to Ubuntu 16 which worked much better and from what I now know Debian probably would have been even less trouble.
    - p1necone 6y ago
      The big problem with Debian stable as an end user OS though is that all the software on it is really outdated, and as soon as you go trying to run more recent versions of applications on it you run into the same issues you were trying to avoid with stable. Imo it makes a lot of sense as a server OS, but not so much for end user application software.
      - zozbot234 6y ago
        You can use officially-provided backports or flatpaks to run more recent versions, if you really need to. I don't think it's more out-of-date post-release than Ubuntu LTS, which is what the other poster was referencing.
sliken 6y ago
I support several family/friends that are computer novices. It's super easy. Just install the latest ubuntu LTS, drag off all the icons except for the settings/sound (for earphones+microphone) and the browser icon. Instead of weekly complaints (lost windows, things changing, sound not working, etc). I get the occasional query once a year or so. I can login remotely to tweak things, or share their screen if need be. WAY WAY WAY less pain then it was under windows. Zoom works and video hangouts work. Webex does not, but that doesn't seem very popular with home users.
- ta17711771 6y ago
  So does Jitsi Meet.
neilalexander 6y ago
> Linux is way way way less likely to just change something and break the whole system while the user is sleeping I take it you have never had to try and correct a system broken by seemingly innocent-looking aptitude or RPM package upgrades. :-) > Fixing a Windows problem can involve having to go into the registry, which can't be copy/pasted and is extremely difficult AND dangerous. (There probably IS a way to copy/paste it, but I don't know it). I’m really not sure the registry is any more “dangerous”. For many everyday users, I would guess that the perceived complexity of the registry and of configuration files scattered throughout the system are really about the same. Both can appear cryptic and fragile. On the one hand, you might accidentally delete something important in the registry. On the other hand, you might forget a quotemark/character or get some indentation wrong in a configuration file and be surprised when the entire thing breaks.
- larrik 6y ago
  > I take it you have never had to try and correct a system broken by seemingly innocent-looking aptitude or RPM package upgrades. :-) Keep in mind that on Win10 you don't even have to click a button, and the updates aren't even avoidable. > I’m really not sure the registry is any more “dangerous”. For many everyday users, I would guess that the perceived complexity of the registry and of configuration files scattered throughout the system are really about the same. Both can appear cryptic and fragile. I dunno, once they are in the registry, it's like putting every config file on the whole system into their home/documents directory...
- Koshkin 6y ago
  > broken by seemingly innocent-looking aptitude or RPM package upgrades Not on Slackware, no.
FpUser 6y ago
5) Fixing a Windows problem can involve having to go into the registry, which can't be copy/pasted and is extremely difficult AND dangerous. (There probably IS a way to copy/paste it, but I don't know it) This pretty much sums it up. You just simply do not have enough Windows experience. Nothing to be ashamed of but doing comparison in this case will give skewed results.
Skunkleton 6y ago
I agree with this mostly, except for: > "copy and paste these config lines into this config" Copy-pasting things you don't understand into configs on Linux is hugely dangerous. It just happens that Linux desktop users aren't high value targets, so you usually get lucky.
- larrik 6y ago
  Yeah, I thought of that when I wrote that. I wrote it anyway, since in reality it's that's what we all do.
  - Skunkleton 6y ago
    I feel personally attacked :p
pjmlp 6y ago
Yet my aging Asus 1215B netbook that came with Ubuntu no longer does OpenGL 4.1 with hardware video decoding thanks newer AMD drivers and has lost wlan capabilities during one Ubuntu release generation.

by larrik 6y ago

ClumsyPilot 6y ago

The update policy is the right choice. I have come across so many people who were he always was too clever by half and disabled security updates for all kinds of incoherent reasons. To "stop spying", "keep out NSA" or because they were afraid their cracked Windows version would go poof. Keeping billions of unpatched devices is disastrous form the point of view of malware.

winkeltripel 6y ago
having updates forced ON is the right choice. The mechanism used in windows 10 is very user hostile, and needlessly so.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

romwell 6y ago

>) Fixing a Windows problem can involve having to go into the registry, which can't be copy/pasted and is extremely difficult AND dangerous. (There probably IS a way to copy/paste it, but I don't know it). You absolutely can copy/paste registry edits. You paste the edit in a plain text .reg file and let the system patch it in for you. [1]https://www.howtogeek.com/382727/what-is-a-reg-file-and-how-do-i-open-one/ https://www.howtogeek.com/382727/what-is-a-reg-file-and-how-...

kevingadd 6y ago
I'd much rather run a narrowly scoped (diff-style) .reg file than unpack an entire configuration file from a .tar.gz and potentially blow away existing settings (which has happened to me more than once when installing system updates...)
- stonewareslord 6y ago
  You can diff Unix configs with... diff I don't think it's ever advisible to tar -xf- -C / to fix a minor config issue. Just extract in tmp and diff -aru etc /etc
  - romwell 6y ago
    Sure, but with .reg files all you need to do is look at the contents of the .reg file to see what the diff is. The .reg file is the diff. Could not have been simpler. That's one upside of the registry being a database rather than a text file.
  - kevingadd 6y ago
    The outer post was talking about helping family members with their computers. They're gonna be dragging files around in the Linux equivalent of Explorer, not extracting stuff to tmp and manually applying diffs. So doing a 1:1 comparison on that basis, the Registry has the standard tools of the trade on Linux beat. There's certainly no particular reason you couldn't send someone a .sh file that manually applies your diffs to grandma's config file, I guess... FWIW I've had Ubuntu system updates blow away entire config files (helpfully setting the old one aside, at least) instead of applying diffs, but maybe that was the package maintainers being naughty.

mmsimanga 6y ago

7) It's way easier to find someone you know to help you on Windows than Linux, for now. I visit my parents once a year and always mark out a day to spend fixing/updating/removing junk on my dad's Windows laptop. Three times I installed Linux and when I came back the following year Windows was back on the laptop. The reason being people just know Windows where I am from and the moment they see Linux they feel that's the problem. Even if my dad is struggling to print something which has nothing to do with Linux, the first thing they do is remove Linux.

Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
I have installed Ubuntu to my mom and my wife's parents PCs and I never ever spent time having to worry about those computers again. They instantly learn where the browser, skype and printer menu is, and NEVER have a problem with a computer again. I also never worried about antiviruses and malware since. They are all in their 70s. No regular user has a problem with Ubuntu these days, but they regularly did have all kinds of trouble with Windows. I also run a business and for the last 13 years have had countless new hires (non developers) who have never seen Ubuntu and were productive on it instantly, without any problems with the OS ever. So it is simply not true that people "feel there is a problem the moment they see Linux". Ubuntu is the most friendly and reliable OS for a regular person out there, I say it from decades of experience.
- mmsimanga 6y ago
  My intention was not to create impression that Linux is the problem. I myself have had similar experiences as you have had and use Ubuntu on all my PCs. However the reality is schools teach on Windows and just about all PCs and laptops sold in my home country have Windows installed. Apple products very rare and for the very rich. What this means is the average "computer guy" available to help my dad is typically a Windows person. If my dad says he can't print, the Windows guy cannot help him on Ubuntu so typically thinks the problem is Ubuntu. I am not saying the problem is Ubuntu, Ubuntu just isn't common in my home town.
  - 6y ago

craftinator 6y ago

This is an excellent breakdown of the differences. I've been looking for a pro/con list between the two that isn't heavily biased by my views, and I'll probably use this almost verbatim next time I have that discussion.

swiley 6y ago

>It's way easier to find someone you know to help you on Windows than Linux, for now. Really? Windows seems to be losing developer mindshare pretty fast and I’m not convinced this isn’t already the case. In college the capture the flag group had a serious problem finding people familiar with windows development and most junior software engineers I’ve met are much more familiar with GNU/Linux than windows.

ketzu 6y ago
Windows support for family members is not limited to developers, it includes the son, niece, brother or cousin that likes to game on their windows machine and is just more used to it. (And I am not sure about the mindshare declining rapidly either.)
- ta17711771 6y ago
  "Just install Cee-Cee-Cleaner, bro."

Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago

> 9) The few times I've gotten family members to try Linux, they called me LESS often for support. Even on laptops! This is so true. All my family members are on Ubuntu, and it just works without any support. For many many years. Sometimes when I visit them I click on update to the next LTS. By the time I have to leave it is updated and runs again for 2 more years.

zozbot234 6y ago
Debian Stable is king when it comes to the "just works" POV. They only release a new stable version after every known update bug has been ironed out, so the process is consistently flawless. Recent versions will even install security updates for you, with no user interaction required.
- rurp 6y ago
  I really wish I had known about Debian Stable when I made the switch to Linux. My first Linux comp was a nightmare because the specific combo of Ubuntu (early 18) and hardware had a myriad of issues. I ended up switching to Ubuntu 16 which worked much better and from what I now know Debian probably would have been even less trouble.
  - p1necone 6y ago
    The big problem with Debian stable as an end user OS though is that all the software on it is really outdated, and as soon as you go trying to run more recent versions of applications on it you run into the same issues you were trying to avoid with stable. Imo it makes a lot of sense as a server OS, but not so much for end user application software.
    - zozbot234 6y ago
      You can use officially-provided backports or flatpaks to run more recent versions, if you really need to. I don't think it's more out-of-date post-release than Ubuntu LTS, which is what the other poster was referencing.

sliken 6y ago

I support several family/friends that are computer novices. It's super easy. Just install the latest ubuntu LTS, drag off all the icons except for the settings/sound (for earphones+microphone) and the browser icon. Instead of weekly complaints (lost windows, things changing, sound not working, etc). I get the occasional query once a year or so. I can login remotely to tweak things, or share their screen if need be. WAY WAY WAY less pain then it was under windows. Zoom works and video hangouts work. Webex does not, but that doesn't seem very popular with home users.

ta17711771 6y ago
So does Jitsi Meet.

neilalexander 6y ago

> Linux is way way way less likely to just change something and break the whole system while the user is sleeping I take it you have never had to try and correct a system broken by seemingly innocent-looking aptitude or RPM package upgrades. :-) > Fixing a Windows problem can involve having to go into the registry, which can't be copy/pasted and is extremely difficult AND dangerous. (There probably IS a way to copy/paste it, but I don't know it). I’m really not sure the registry is any more “dangerous”. For many everyday users, I would guess that the perceived complexity of the registry and of configuration files scattered throughout the system are really about the same. Both can appear cryptic and fragile. On the one hand, you might accidentally delete something important in the registry. On the other hand, you might forget a quotemark/character or get some indentation wrong in a configuration file and be surprised when the entire thing breaks.

larrik 6y ago
> I take it you have never had to try and correct a system broken by seemingly innocent-looking aptitude or RPM package upgrades. :-) Keep in mind that on Win10 you don't even have to click a button, and the updates aren't even avoidable. > I’m really not sure the registry is any more “dangerous”. For many everyday users, I would guess that the perceived complexity of the registry and of configuration files scattered throughout the system are really about the same. Both can appear cryptic and fragile. I dunno, once they are in the registry, it's like putting every config file on the whole system into their home/documents directory...
Koshkin 6y ago
> broken by seemingly innocent-looking aptitude or RPM package upgrades Not on Slackware, no.

FpUser 6y ago

5) Fixing a Windows problem can involve having to go into the registry, which can't be copy/pasted and is extremely difficult AND dangerous. (There probably IS a way to copy/paste it, but I don't know it) This pretty much sums it up. You just simply do not have enough Windows experience. Nothing to be ashamed of but doing comparison in this case will give skewed results.

Skunkleton 6y ago

I agree with this mostly, except for: > "copy and paste these config lines into this config" Copy-pasting things you don't understand into configs on Linux is hugely dangerous. It just happens that Linux desktop users aren't high value targets, so you usually get lucky.

larrik 6y ago
Yeah, I thought of that when I wrote that. I wrote it anyway, since in reality it's that's what we all do.
- Skunkleton 6y ago
  I feel personally attacked :p

pjmlp 6y ago

Yet my aging Asus 1215B netbook that came with Ubuntu no longer does OpenGL 4.1 with hardware video decoding thanks newer AMD drivers and has lost wlan capabilities during one Ubuntu release generation.