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This thread reminded me that Carmack has been a free software advocate in the past, and my citation is, quite amusingly, that book: > It was February 8, 1998,

This thread reminded me that Carmack has been a free software advocate in the past, and my citation is, quite amusingly, that book: > It was February 8, 1998, and Carmack was about to put his brain to the test: counting cards in blackjack. This had become something of a new fascination of his. “Having a reasonable grounding in statistics and probability and no belief in luck, fate, karma, or god(s), the only casino game that interests me is blackjack,” he wrote in a .plan file. “Playing blackjack properly is a test of personal discipline. It takes a small amount of skill to know the right plays and count the cards, but the hard part is making yourself consistantly [sic] behave like a robot, rather than succumbing to your ‘gut instincts.’ ” To refine his skills before the trip, Carmack applied his usual learning approach: consuming a few books on the subject and composing a computer program, in this case one that simulated the statistics of blackjack dealt cards. > His research proved successful, netting him twenty thousand dollars, which he donated to the Free Software Foundation, an organization of like-minded believers in the Hacker Ethic.

Trasmatta 6y ago
Didn't he also end up getting banned for life from that casino for counting cards?
- AdmiralAsshat 6y ago
  Well yes, it wasn't the part that interested me about that paragraph, but if you want the whole thing... > His research proved successful, netting him twenty thousand dollars, which he donated to the Free Software Foundation, an organization of like-minded believers in the Hacker Ethic. “Its [sic] not like I’m trying to make a living at [blackjack],” Carmack wrote online after his trip, “so the chance of getting kicked out doesn’t bother me too much.” It didn’t take long for him to find out just how he’d feel. On the next trip, Carmack was approached by three men in dark suits who said, “We’d appreciate if you’d play any other game than blackjack.” > The others at the table watched in disbelief. “Why are they doing this to you?” a woman asked. > “They think that I’m counting cards,” Carmack said. > “They think you can remember all those different cards?” > “Yeah,” Carmack replied, “something like that.” > “Well, what do you do?” > “I’m a computer programmer,” he said, as he was escorted out the door.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- sigzero 6y ago
  So? Counting cards is not illegal if that is what you are trying to insinuate.
  - Trasmatta 6y ago
    I'm not insinuating anything, it's just a fun story.
  - lemoncucumber 6y ago
    No, but casinos are private businesses with the right to refuse service to anyone, and they tend to exercise that right against people they believe to be counting cards. Card counters are not a protected class.
    - pacificmint 6y ago
      > the right to refuse service to anyone If I remember correctly, then that is true in Nevada, but not in Atlantic City. There they have to let you play even if they suspect you of counting cards. Of course that just means they will employ other means to prevent you from counting cards (larger shoes, continuous shuffling, etc).
    - zbuf 6y ago
      As we're here, can someone explain the difference between counting cards vs being actually good at the game of Blackjack? I've always assumed that the two are really the same thing. If you get good at the game then that implies you're using an intuition for the probabilities of certain events based on the history of the cards. I suppose the casinos don't have to justify this, or have any moral quandaries about it.
  - jasonjayr 6y ago
    It's not illegal. But the casino is private property, and if you don't follow their instructions to stop counting, and ask you to leave, now it's trespass.
- headcanon 6y ago
  Wouldn't surprise me - I've read some stuff on card counters and seen a few videos, seems like there's a whole other side of successful card counting beyond the technical skill where you have to read out the social situation, since any pit boss worth their salt will be able to spot a card counter a mile away. Which I'm guessing Carmack didn't really care to do since he was just on an intellectual kick.
  - gowld 6y ago
    What social situation?
    - Raidion 6y ago
      You need to leave before the pitt boss makes you leave.
      - CydeWeys 6y ago
        More like you need to leave before they notice you and make the decision to ban you (once they make that decision it doesn't matter if you've left already or not; you ain't coming back either way).
  - Raidion 6y ago
    Good card counters are always a team, you can't go far solo as it's pretty easy to tell when you're betting 20 dollars one hand, and 500 another. You usually have a few smaller players just playing fixed bets who call over some higher roller that will do the big betting when the count is high, and then just leave when the count gets low. Rumor has it that the security cameras now have software that will tally the count automatically, and flag people that play when the count is up. Coupled with player identification (facial recognition/player rewards cards) and correlating player times, casinos are starting to automate this. All rumor, of course, but sounds plausible if you're willing to throw a few million at the problem.
    - ChuckMcM 6y ago
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
renewiltord 6y ago
On his recent appearance on Joe Rogan, he talks about Free Software and making older engine software open when they released new stuff. I think he might have mentioned icculus too but I don’t recall.
anyfoo 6y ago
Why not Poker? As someone who feels similarly, Poker is fun because you play against other people, rather than just statistics.
- chrisco255 6y ago
  In 1998, not very many casinos ran poker rooms. It didn't start to boom as a game until after the WSOP on ESPN and online poker in the early 00s.
  - Scottn1 6y ago
    If you would have said not many poker rooms ran No-Limit Hold'em in 1998, you would have been right. But poker rooms and poker (limit Hold'em and 7-card Stud) were easily accessible in casinos in 1998. At least in Las Vegas it was. No-Limit Hold'em is what took off in early 2000 with TV/WSOP popularity and quickly became basically the only game in town by mid 2000's.

Trasmatta 6y ago

Didn't he also end up getting banned for life from that casino for counting cards?

AdmiralAsshat 6y ago
Well yes, it wasn't the part that interested me about that paragraph, but if you want the whole thing... > His research proved successful, netting him twenty thousand dollars, which he donated to the Free Software Foundation, an organization of like-minded believers in the Hacker Ethic. “Its [sic] not like I’m trying to make a living at [blackjack],” Carmack wrote online after his trip, “so the chance of getting kicked out doesn’t bother me too much.” It didn’t take long for him to find out just how he’d feel. On the next trip, Carmack was approached by three men in dark suits who said, “We’d appreciate if you’d play any other game than blackjack.” > The others at the table watched in disbelief. “Why are they doing this to you?” a woman asked. > “They think that I’m counting cards,” Carmack said. > “They think you can remember all those different cards?” > “Yeah,” Carmack replied, “something like that.” > “Well, what do you do?” > “I’m a computer programmer,” he said, as he was escorted out the door.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
sigzero 6y ago
So? Counting cards is not illegal if that is what you are trying to insinuate.
- Trasmatta 6y ago
  I'm not insinuating anything, it's just a fun story.
- lemoncucumber 6y ago
  No, but casinos are private businesses with the right to refuse service to anyone, and they tend to exercise that right against people they believe to be counting cards. Card counters are not a protected class.
  - pacificmint 6y ago
    > the right to refuse service to anyone If I remember correctly, then that is true in Nevada, but not in Atlantic City. There they have to let you play even if they suspect you of counting cards. Of course that just means they will employ other means to prevent you from counting cards (larger shoes, continuous shuffling, etc).
  - zbuf 6y ago
    As we're here, can someone explain the difference between counting cards vs being actually good at the game of Blackjack? I've always assumed that the two are really the same thing. If you get good at the game then that implies you're using an intuition for the probabilities of certain events based on the history of the cards. I suppose the casinos don't have to justify this, or have any moral quandaries about it.
- jasonjayr 6y ago
  It's not illegal. But the casino is private property, and if you don't follow their instructions to stop counting, and ask you to leave, now it's trespass.
headcanon 6y ago
Wouldn't surprise me - I've read some stuff on card counters and seen a few videos, seems like there's a whole other side of successful card counting beyond the technical skill where you have to read out the social situation, since any pit boss worth their salt will be able to spot a card counter a mile away. Which I'm guessing Carmack didn't really care to do since he was just on an intellectual kick.
- gowld 6y ago
  What social situation?
  - Raidion 6y ago
    You need to leave before the pitt boss makes you leave.
    - CydeWeys 6y ago
      More like you need to leave before they notice you and make the decision to ban you (once they make that decision it doesn't matter if you've left already or not; you ain't coming back either way).
- Raidion 6y ago
  Good card counters are always a team, you can't go far solo as it's pretty easy to tell when you're betting 20 dollars one hand, and 500 another. You usually have a few smaller players just playing fixed bets who call over some higher roller that will do the big betting when the count is high, and then just leave when the count gets low. Rumor has it that the security cameras now have software that will tally the count automatically, and flag people that play when the count is up. Coupled with player identification (facial recognition/player rewards cards) and correlating player times, casinos are starting to automate this. All rumor, of course, but sounds plausible if you're willing to throw a few million at the problem.
  - ChuckMcM 6y ago
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

renewiltord 6y ago

On his recent appearance on Joe Rogan, he talks about Free Software and making older engine software open when they released new stuff. I think he might have mentioned icculus too but I don’t recall.

anyfoo 6y ago

Why not Poker? As someone who feels similarly, Poker is fun because you play against other people, rather than just statistics.

chrisco255 6y ago
In 1998, not very many casinos ran poker rooms. It didn't start to boom as a game until after the WSOP on ESPN and online poker in the early 00s.
- Scottn1 6y ago
  If you would have said not many poker rooms ran No-Limit Hold'em in 1998, you would have been right. But poker rooms and poker (limit Hold'em and 7-card Stud) were easily accessible in casinos in 1998. At least in Las Vegas it was. No-Limit Hold'em is what took off in early 2000 with TV/WSOP popularity and quickly became basically the only game in town by mid 2000's.