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Fair point. I guess part of this conversation also depends on what each of us believes society's goal should be (minimize suffering, maximize individualistic f

Fair point. I guess part of this conversation also depends on what each of us believes society's goal should be (minimize suffering, maximize individualistic freedom, etc). My thinking is more so from a position of minimizing suffering, and that finding a way to reduce the power of bad actors may help minimize wars and other conflicts and reduce suffering. There's obviously the big counterpoint that attempts to reduce power of bad actors may lead to increased corruption that in turn worsens society that if it hadn't been attempted. But that's why this is just another example of a complex problem.

bgorman 6y ago
People should never be allowed to claim suffering from political speech. It is that simple in my opinion. Yes, this legally allows Nazis to hold rallies outside of a synagogue. However, in practice this rarely happens, and is arguably a benefit to society since these people (Nazis) are now outing themselves as insane. On the other hand, human history has shown that political parties will attempt to censor anything they can. We can see this with the alternative realities constructed by Fox News/MSNBC and we can see it in totalitarian dictatorships like North Korea. I am not aware of any counterexamples of a country where the government does not attempt to influence the narrative.
- digi59404 6y ago
  I’d also like to point out. The Nazis didn’t come to power with free speech. They came to power by silencing their opponents through force, political posturing, manipulation, and opportunistic behavior. In fact the Nazis squashed free speech in many ways, and used violence, threats, and coercion to make others silence their friends. Frankly had free speech been protected and valued by any means. We may not have had a third reich. Let the fascists speak, let them out theirselves. So that common people can distance themselves.
  - pashamur 6y ago
    The problem is that the concept of free speech cannot be independent of the concept of power. Rules and Laws are only as good as the people in power choose; we've been lucky in many ways that most of the time, the people in power choose to behave in a way that upholds the laws that we consider important. However, that "good will" is specifically what malicious actors exploit in order to achieve that power and then violate the same rules that allowed them to spread their message and come to power. And unfortunately, once they have power, there is very little that normal people can do to ensure that they will obey by the rules that got them there (i.e. free speech). I would argue that there was no way to prevent the Nazis from squashing free speech except by preventing them from coming to power - and this is true with many malicious actors. Unfortunately, that means we have to balance the need for free speech with the need to prevent malicious groups from coming to power. Ergo, the Paradox of Tolerance.
    - skinkestek 6y ago
      > And unfortunately, once they have power, there is very little that normal people can do to ensure that they will obey by the rules that got them there (i.e. free speech). This is where the second amendment shines isn't it?
      - orestarod 6y ago
        Laws do not fight. People do.
nvmd 6y ago
> My thinking is more so from a position of minimizing suffering Don't you think that's unfair by nature? How do you justify it?
- skosch 6y ago
  Fairness isn't an end in itself, but unfairness can cause people to revolt, which then leads to more suffering. It's just a matter of how you weigh such considerations: https://www.utilitarianism.net/types-of-utilitarianism https://www.utilitarianism.net/types-of-utilitarianism
  - nvmd 6y ago
    I know what utilitarianism is, as someone who leans more to the side of deontological ethics. The problem with fairness not being an end means you can't have justice. Your moral ethics culminates on the never ending struggle we have right now of shifting the blame for what happens and what doesn't, and you're fine with it because you're blinded by the hope that it'll work. If you're willing to tell me why, as well as why you're proud of your relativism, why the means justify the end, I'm all eyes. If you're not, I'll understand.

bgorman 6y ago

People should never be allowed to claim suffering from political speech. It is that simple in my opinion. Yes, this legally allows Nazis to hold rallies outside of a synagogue. However, in practice this rarely happens, and is arguably a benefit to society since these people (Nazis) are now outing themselves as insane. On the other hand, human history has shown that political parties will attempt to censor anything they can. We can see this with the alternative realities constructed by Fox News/MSNBC and we can see it in totalitarian dictatorships like North Korea. I am not aware of any counterexamples of a country where the government does not attempt to influence the narrative.

digi59404 6y ago
I’d also like to point out. The Nazis didn’t come to power with free speech. They came to power by silencing their opponents through force, political posturing, manipulation, and opportunistic behavior. In fact the Nazis squashed free speech in many ways, and used violence, threats, and coercion to make others silence their friends. Frankly had free speech been protected and valued by any means. We may not have had a third reich. Let the fascists speak, let them out theirselves. So that common people can distance themselves.
- pashamur 6y ago
  The problem is that the concept of free speech cannot be independent of the concept of power. Rules and Laws are only as good as the people in power choose; we've been lucky in many ways that most of the time, the people in power choose to behave in a way that upholds the laws that we consider important. However, that "good will" is specifically what malicious actors exploit in order to achieve that power and then violate the same rules that allowed them to spread their message and come to power. And unfortunately, once they have power, there is very little that normal people can do to ensure that they will obey by the rules that got them there (i.e. free speech). I would argue that there was no way to prevent the Nazis from squashing free speech except by preventing them from coming to power - and this is true with many malicious actors. Unfortunately, that means we have to balance the need for free speech with the need to prevent malicious groups from coming to power. Ergo, the Paradox of Tolerance.
  - skinkestek 6y ago
    > And unfortunately, once they have power, there is very little that normal people can do to ensure that they will obey by the rules that got them there (i.e. free speech). This is where the second amendment shines isn't it?
    - orestarod 6y ago
      Laws do not fight. People do.

nvmd 6y ago

> My thinking is more so from a position of minimizing suffering Don't you think that's unfair by nature? How do you justify it?

skosch 6y ago
Fairness isn't an end in itself, but unfairness can cause people to revolt, which then leads to more suffering. It's just a matter of how you weigh such considerations: https://www.utilitarianism.net/types-of-utilitarianism https://www.utilitarianism.net/types-of-utilitarianism
- nvmd 6y ago
  I know what utilitarianism is, as someone who leans more to the side of deontological ethics. The problem with fairness not being an end means you can't have justice. Your moral ethics culminates on the never ending struggle we have right now of shifting the blame for what happens and what doesn't, and you're fine with it because you're blinded by the hope that it'll work. If you're willing to tell me why, as well as why you're proud of your relativism, why the means justify the end, I'm all eyes. If you're not, I'll understand.