5 ms·

A great example of why not just maternity leave (per the link) but parental leave broadly is a good idea. And why both parents need to take it. Otherwise it wil

A great example of why not just maternity leave (per the link) but parental leave broadly is a good idea. And why both parents need to take it. Otherwise it will be used by some as an excuse to discriminate against birth parents. Of course there are many other benefits to both parents taking leave, including that studies have shown that non birth parents who take leave tend to be more involved in parenting long term. Also, it’s hugely rewarding emotionally!

throwaway894345 6y ago
> And why both parents need to take it I think this is key to addressing discrimination (simply making discrimination illegal is insufficient because discrimination is so difficult to prove); however, getting both genders to take it in roughly equal proportion is probably nearly as difficult, at least apart from mandatory leave, which would be authoritarian and awful. EDIT: Genuinely curious: why the downvotes? Do people not believe that taking leave in equal proportions is necessary to combat discrimination? Or do they think that it is easy to make people do this ethically? Surely no one thinks we should force people to take leave against their will?
- barry-cotter 6y ago
  You don’t support forcing men to take paternity leave. Many people do. That’s why you’re being downvoted.
  - gknoy 6y ago
    People support _forcing_ parents to take {ma,pa}ternity leave? I am skeptical, as this is a position I have never ever heard of before. As a parent, I can see why one could advocate for equal (+generous) paid parental leave (disclaimer: I support that idea), but I've never heard (nor would I understand) the idea that one should be forced to _take_ such leave.
    - barry-cotter 6y ago
      If you’ve just given birth do you want women like Sheryl Sandberg to be allowed, who take three days or a week off and then are back at the office? Or do you want everyone to compete on a more level playing field, where everyone must take three months off? Because those for whom family comes second to work will get promoted faster anyway but if you let them work even more the advantages just compound. For an example of the Harrison Bergeron attitude see https://twitter.com/hoovergreen/status/1258070856745529344?s=21 https://twitter.com/hoovergreen/status/1258070856745529344?s... https://twitter.com/r_rusha/status/1258496895824957440?s=21 https://twitter.com/r_rusha/status/1258496895824957440?s=21 https://twitter.com/extendedhuckel/status/1258065461951918080?s=21 https://twitter.com/extendedhuckel/status/125806546195191808... https://twitter.com/kmpjones/status/1258214473757794305?s=21 https://twitter.com/kmpjones/status/1258214473757794305?s=21
      - throwaway894345 6y ago
        I want people to be free to make the tradeoffs that they prefer. If someone wants to choose family over work, they should be free to do so (that doesn't mean that they should get the same rewards as the person who prioritizes work over family). Similarly, those who prioritize family over work should be free to do so. It is an awful injustice to restrict someone's individual freedoms on the basis of their gender (and no, it's no consolation that it's in service of some arbitrary desire to prevent differences in distributions for some trait between the genders).
        baq 6y ago
        this works both ways. if a couple is expecting a child but can't afford to take time off for childbirth, is it freedom or justice?
        throwaway894345 6y ago
        I don’t understand. Optional parental leave would allow both parents to take work off. We’re debating whether or not parents (specifically fathers) should be forced against their will to take time off in order to satisfy an arbitrary desire to unify the distributions of work experience between men and women. In this debate, there is no dichotomy between freedom and justice; taking away one’s individual rights in the basis of gender is injustice—it’s neither freedom nor justice.
yters 6y ago
what if this biases employers against hiring procreative couples?
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  Asking about plans to have a family or relationship status is already illegal in the US, isn't it?
  - claudeganon 6y ago
    The United States is also a country famous for its lax enforcement of labor laws.
  - yters 6y ago
    Sure, but there are pretty reliable proxies, such as age.
    - ceejayoz 6y ago
      The chance of employers stopping hiring from the 20-35 year old age group is... slim.
      - yters 6y ago
        might bring about reverse ageism and balance things a bit
- Barrin92 6y ago
  then I think we should ask them where they think their next batch of interns comes from
  - syshum 6y ago
    Visa's ofcourse
DavidVoid 6y ago
> And why both parents need to take it. Sweden does that to a degree. Since 2016 both parents get 90 days each (it was 60 days each before then) that they either use or lose, and the remaining 210 days can be split between the parents however they like. As of 2018, it seems like men used 29.3% of the of the parental leave days so it's not equal in terms of use yet. I should note that the pay is 80% (up to a maximum) of your normal pay. So from a financial standpoint, it makes sense for the parent with the lower income to use the parental leave days.

throwaway894345 6y ago

> And why both parents need to take it I think this is key to addressing discrimination (simply making discrimination illegal is insufficient because discrimination is so difficult to prove); however, getting both genders to take it in roughly equal proportion is probably nearly as difficult, at least apart from mandatory leave, which would be authoritarian and awful. EDIT: Genuinely curious: why the downvotes? Do people not believe that taking leave in equal proportions is necessary to combat discrimination? Or do they think that it is easy to make people do this ethically? Surely no one thinks we should force people to take leave against their will?

barry-cotter 6y ago
You don’t support forcing men to take paternity leave. Many people do. That’s why you’re being downvoted.
- gknoy 6y ago
  People support _forcing_ parents to take {ma,pa}ternity leave? I am skeptical, as this is a position I have never ever heard of before. As a parent, I can see why one could advocate for equal (+generous) paid parental leave (disclaimer: I support that idea), but I've never heard (nor would I understand) the idea that one should be forced to _take_ such leave.
  - barry-cotter 6y ago
    If you’ve just given birth do you want women like Sheryl Sandberg to be allowed, who take three days or a week off and then are back at the office? Or do you want everyone to compete on a more level playing field, where everyone must take three months off? Because those for whom family comes second to work will get promoted faster anyway but if you let them work even more the advantages just compound. For an example of the Harrison Bergeron attitude see https://twitter.com/hoovergreen/status/1258070856745529344?s=21 https://twitter.com/hoovergreen/status/1258070856745529344?s... https://twitter.com/r_rusha/status/1258496895824957440?s=21 https://twitter.com/r_rusha/status/1258496895824957440?s=21 https://twitter.com/extendedhuckel/status/1258065461951918080?s=21 https://twitter.com/extendedhuckel/status/125806546195191808... https://twitter.com/kmpjones/status/1258214473757794305?s=21 https://twitter.com/kmpjones/status/1258214473757794305?s=21
    - throwaway894345 6y ago
      I want people to be free to make the tradeoffs that they prefer. If someone wants to choose family over work, they should be free to do so (that doesn't mean that they should get the same rewards as the person who prioritizes work over family). Similarly, those who prioritize family over work should be free to do so. It is an awful injustice to restrict someone's individual freedoms on the basis of their gender (and no, it's no consolation that it's in service of some arbitrary desire to prevent differences in distributions for some trait between the genders).
      - baq 6y ago
        this works both ways. if a couple is expecting a child but can't afford to take time off for childbirth, is it freedom or justice?
        throwaway894345 6y ago
        I don’t understand. Optional parental leave would allow both parents to take work off. We’re debating whether or not parents (specifically fathers) should be forced against their will to take time off in order to satisfy an arbitrary desire to unify the distributions of work experience between men and women. In this debate, there is no dichotomy between freedom and justice; taking away one’s individual rights in the basis of gender is injustice—it’s neither freedom nor justice.

yters 6y ago

what if this biases employers against hiring procreative couples?

ceejayoz 6y ago
Asking about plans to have a family or relationship status is already illegal in the US, isn't it?
- claudeganon 6y ago
  The United States is also a country famous for its lax enforcement of labor laws.
- yters 6y ago
  Sure, but there are pretty reliable proxies, such as age.
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    The chance of employers stopping hiring from the 20-35 year old age group is... slim.
    - yters 6y ago
      might bring about reverse ageism and balance things a bit
Barrin92 6y ago
then I think we should ask them where they think their next batch of interns comes from
- syshum 6y ago
  Visa's ofcourse

DavidVoid 6y ago

> And why both parents need to take it. Sweden does that to a degree. Since 2016 both parents get 90 days each (it was 60 days each before then) that they either use or lose, and the remaining 210 days can be split between the parents however they like. As of 2018, it seems like men used 29.3% of the of the parental leave days so it's not equal in terms of use yet. I should note that the pay is 80% (up to a maximum) of your normal pay. So from a financial standpoint, it makes sense for the parent with the lower income to use the parental leave days.