8 ms·

I'm really starting to despise most OS's for having such an overbearing security policy. I think it's really why I've stuck with Windows for so long. For sure W

I'm really starting to despise most OS's for having such an overbearing security policy. I think it's really why I've stuck with Windows for so long. For sure Windows is not as user-stupid as something like macOS, iOS, Android, etc... but for me as a power user it's just about as powerful as I need to be. I'm not even considering *nix distros here because honestly the market for every day users for something like Ubuntu or Mint is really small, and those are possibly the most end-user friendly. I hate that macOS is starting to go the iOS route of only letting me run applications that are Apple certified. No, I do not want to open system preferences every time I want to launch something. I am a power user. Put it behind some shell command or something... but have it easily documented and marketed towards people like me. At least we can still sideload with Android. Some changes to the API like this those are just so annoying. Yeah there's going to be some apps that just need pretty much unlimited access to my device. But that's OK. I've accepted that.

jdmg94 6y ago
> For sure Windows is not as user-stupid as something like macOS, iOS, Android, etc... but for me as a power user it's just about as powerful as I need to be. I guess it depends on what kind of "power user" you are because windows is pretty limited (why else would they frankestein an Ubuntu terminal into the latest Windows versions?).
- leetcrew 6y ago
  kind of a weird quip. the point of WSL is to allow you to use existing linux tools and write code targeting linux from within windows. it's not intended to make administration of the windows installation easier. maybe I'm not what you would call a "power user", but I do write code for a living. I'm sure you would have a bad time if you expect windows to work like your favorite linux distro, but I find it perfectly serviceable for my work. it gets in my way far less than macOS.
- mey 6y ago
  Not sure what you mean by limited here? You have quite a few options are your disposal these days. (Depending on how you scope "power user") Cygwin (OSS compiled to Win APIs) Powershell (Native Windows fun) WSL 1 (Linux ABI Bindings to Win Kernel) WSL 2 (Thin Hyper-V running a full Linux Kernel, with Plan9 FS mappings to Windows filesystem) (Insider Preview, should be releasing this quarter) Hyper-V DOSBox Docker (Hyper-V, soon to take advantage of WSL-2) Most of the above also benefit from the work being done over at the new Terminal https://github.com/Microsoft/Terminal https://github.com/Microsoft/Terminal
  - skissane 6y ago
    > DOSBox Much as I love DOSBox, I don't think it belongs on your list. In fact, DOSBox's command line capabilities are weak compared to genuine MS-DOS (which is already quite weak to begin with) – it doesn't fully support COMMAND.COM's syntax, it lacks many of the commands/utilities that come with MS-DOS, etc. – it is just the bare minimum to get most game launcher batch files to work. And that's unlikely to ever change, since DOSBox devs generally aren't interested in improving the accuracy of the MS-DOS emulation unless that improvement helps run some game – if you want a more accurate emulation of MS-DOS, they'll point you to FreeDOS instead.
    - mey 6y ago
      Fair point. I leave the post as is for posterity. I wonder if https://github.com/Microsoft/MS-DOS https://github.com/Microsoft/MS-DOS will improve that situation.
- FpUser 6y ago
  Linux is major platform for deployment of backend servers and Microsoft wants Windows to be viable development platform for Linux. Hence "frankesteining". Has nothing to do with the Windows being "limited" because it is not. I use Windows to develop Linux applications and am happy like a clam with this approach.
- lonelappde 6y ago
  "power user" == someone who uses power tools like Tim the Tool Man Taylor
- mdoms 6y ago
  > (why else would they frankestein an Ubuntu terminal into the latest Windows versions? Certainly not to help you administer your Windows system, which is not at all what it is intended for.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  To sell Windows laptops to people that buy Apple laptops to actually develop GNU/Linux software instead of supporting OEMs like Dell, System76 and Tuxedo, and don't care one second about Apple or Microsoft developer platforms.
sosborn 6y ago
> No, I do not want to open system preferences every time I want to launch something. I am a power user. You don't have to. Right click on the icon and select 'open.' https://support.apple.com/en-gu/guide/mac-help/mh40616/10.15/mac/10.15 https://support.apple.com/en-gu/guide/mac-help/mh40616/10.15...
- cthaeh 6y ago
  That is like 3 steps more than it should be. There should be a global setting to tell apple to fuck off with their security bullshit.
  - envy2 6y ago
    There is: sudo spctl --master-disable Then choose "Anywhere" under "Allow apps from..." in the Security & Privacy preferences. You'll never be bothered again.
- mwfunk 6y ago
  Also, it should be noted that this is only the first time you launch the untrusted app. After that the system considers the app to be trusted and doesn't bug you about it. But self-described power users already know all this stuff, so I'm sure this isn't news to anyone. Self-described power users know everything about everything, or else they wouldn't describe themselves as power users. It's why they're so revered for their humility and lack of obvious cognitive biases throughout the world.
forgotpwd16 6y ago
For every day users, that is those wanting access to email, social media, an office suite, etc I will argue that Ubuntu or Mint is fine. Even for other users, the most frequent issue that I've seen being mentioned is Windows-only software. If there is no such thing then the aforementioned distros should be fine. Also, there was never unlimited access in Android unless you had a rooted device. Probably there will be a way around no-exec for rooted users, probably setting up an app as trusted. Nevertheless, this change is really cumbersome and it seems Android is slowly turning to iOS lockdown-wise.
- pathartl 6y ago
  > For every day users, that is those wanting access to email, social media, an office suite, etc I will argue that Ubuntu or Mint is fine. Yes, it is fine, but that doesn't mean people actually use it. I'm just highlighting that Linux is generally not thought of as a large market for most consumers. The point about root is a good one.
- zozbot234 6y ago
  Rooted users can freely alter or disable enforcement for any SELinux policy. None of this will affect them. (OTOH, many apps can't be installed or function on a rooted device due to SafetyNet and the like. And no, there is no safe bypass of SafetyNet since Google can potentially require users to run a remotely-attested "stock" firmware in order to pass the check.)
xoa 6y ago
>I hate that macOS is starting to go the iOS route of only letting me run applications that are Apple certified. No, I do not want to open system preferences every time I want to launch something. I am a power user. Yeah, such a power user that you can't use any one of the easy, documented ways to deal with that? You're not exactly helping your case here. >Put it behind some shell command or something... but have it easily documented and marketed towards people like me. sudo spctl --master-disable Man page for spctl is all there. Or how about quarantine? That's just controlled by an extended attribute (com.apple.quarantine) and you can remove it (interactively or via script including recursively down a directory tree) with xattr. Want to totally disable SIP too? That's also documented and there, boot to recovery, pull up the terminal and csrutil disable With SIP off you can also then modify what it applies to in a more fine grained way if you want. Yeah, Apple has put up more guardrails in macOS. But contrary to your assertion, enhanced security is plenty useful for "power users" too. Being a power user doesn't mean that it's nice to have some bad software clobber your install or a zero-day nail you. Some of the new security features could definitely be made much more easily useful for power users sure, up to and including having a GUI on them. It'd be nice if Apple had functionality to easily have your own root signing setup alongside theirs, so that we could take advantage of all the signing mojo as well. And it's reasonable long term to be concerned about a day when Macs also have hardware trust chains and what happens then. But for the time being macOS remains 100% modifiable for an actual genuine power user. The new stuff can be turned off, and more easily arguably then back when you needed to recompile your own kernel to mess with kern.securelevel and the like. Somehow someone in the company continues to open source a certain amount of macOS same as the old days, see https://opensource.apple.com/ https://opensource.apple.com/.
- pathartl 6y ago
  Ah, see, now that's good. I don't use macOS enough so I've not known about that. > It'd be nice if Apple had functionality to easily have your own root signing setup alongside theirs, so that we could take advantage of all the signing mojo as well. Yeah, that would be very developer friendly without breaking their shields too much. Also no argument that macOS isn't modifiable. However with the general dismantlement of things like AppleScript I feel like we've already passed the golden age of the OS.
txcwpalpha 6y ago
I totally get and agree with you, but the notion of Windows not having an overbearing security policy makes me laugh. MacOS is frustrating in some ways, but at least when I do 'sudo __' it generally allows me to do whatever I want. Windows, on the other hand.... the amount of times I've yelled "I AM THE ADMINISTRATOR!" at my PC is too damn high. Getting a "You do not have permission to access that file" even when I'm logged in as an Administrator is my bane.
larrik 6y ago
As someone who has been on Linux a long time, but still has to support family members using Windows, here's my perspective: 1) Linux is usually easier in the "happy case", where everything works as it should, and it supports everything that the user needs. 2) Linux is way way way less likely to just change something and break the whole system while the user is sleeping. (This was REAL fun with my grandparents-in-law when their Dell All-in-One PC decided to upgrade itself from Windows 8.1 to Win10 despite Dell not having drivers for Win10 on their fancy custom monitor. I have to fix it for them every 6 months now.) 3) Searching the web for Windows solutions to your issues without being a computer expert feels like it has a >80% of infecting your computer with malware or getting you on the phone with a scammer. As a computer expert it's like 20% (not even zero!). 4) Fixing a Linux problem can be painful, but is often "copy and paste these config lines into this config". Arcane. 5) Fixing a Windows problem can involve having to go into the registry, which can't be copy/pasted and is extremely difficult AND dangerous. (There probably IS a way to copy/paste it, but I don't know it). 6) That said, it's easier to fall off the "happy path" and into real trouble in Linux. Fixing the issue by randomly clicking stuff is more likely to work in Windows than Linux. 7) It's way easier to find someone you know to help you on Windows than Linux, for now. 8) Gaming is still so much better on Windows, unfortunately, but the gap is closing. 9) The few times I've gotten family members to try Linux, they called me LESS often for support. Even on laptops! 10) Windows is becoming increasingly user hostile in every way. Ads, forced updates, forced settings changes, privacy issues, etc.
- ClumsyPilot 6y ago
  The update policy is the right choice. I have come across so many people who were he always was too clever by half and disabled security updates for all kinds of incoherent reasons. To "stop spying", "keep out NSA" or because they were afraid their cracked Windows version would go poof. Keeping billions of unpatched devices is disastrous form the point of view of malware.
  - winkeltripel 6y ago
    having updates forced ON is the right choice. The mechanism used in windows 10 is very user hostile, and needlessly so.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Dahoon 6y ago
>there's going to be some apps that just need pretty much unlimited access to my device That is what root access is for. Non-root should never have "pretty much unlimited access" to a device.
yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
> I'm really starting to despise most OS's for having such an overbearing security policy. I think it's really why I've stuck with Windows for so long. For sure Windows is not as user-stupid as something like macOS, iOS, Android, etc... but for me as a power user it's just about as powerful as I need to be. > I'm not even considering *nix distros here because honestly the market for every day users for something like Ubuntu or Mint is really small, and those are possibly the most end-user friendly. Like, I sympathize, I really do, but you're complaining about OSs restricting your freedom while avoiding the OSs that don't restrict your freedom. Yes, Darwin and NT should behave better, but they don't. It absolutely sucks that the options are "supports most commercial software" XOR "lets user control their own device", with some options splitting the difference (ex. ChromeOS possibly with developer mode, Android rooted or with a custom ROM), but the option is there.
noisy_boy 6y ago
We have two laptops running Linux in our home. Two use cases: - Me: can install a distro/troubleshoot things on cli/like to endlessly tinker with DEs etc. Linux lets me do all this and more. - My daugther: just wants to get on with classwork, music, videos, Zoom/Skype/Google Meet etc. Too young to ask which OS the laptop was running. Was comfortable on XFCE within few days for her daily needs. Linux serves both of us so well without restricting us or getting in the way. Being rock solid and friendly enough for average users while having the freedom/flexibility under the hood have been the big reasons why I have stuck with it for more than a decade.
Skunkleton 6y ago
> Windows is not as user-stupid as something like macOS, iOS, Android, etc... Even linux distros go down this path from time to time. For example, with systemd linger, or when ubuntu got rid of the root account. I don't like thinking of it as user-stupid. For example when I type sudo, I tend to automatically think a little harder about what I am about to do.
pjmlp 6y ago
Eventually you won't have any option left. "How Windows 10X runs UWP and Win32 apps" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztrmrIlgbIc&list=PLWZJrkeLOrbZ3CMHpbglE4NyJSEo-_qhr&index=5&t=0s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztrmrIlgbIc&list=PLWZJrkeLOr...

jdmg94 6y ago

> For sure Windows is not as user-stupid as something like macOS, iOS, Android, etc... but for me as a power user it's just about as powerful as I need to be. I guess it depends on what kind of "power user" you are because windows is pretty limited (why else would they frankestein an Ubuntu terminal into the latest Windows versions?).

leetcrew 6y ago
kind of a weird quip. the point of WSL is to allow you to use existing linux tools and write code targeting linux from within windows. it's not intended to make administration of the windows installation easier. maybe I'm not what you would call a "power user", but I do write code for a living. I'm sure you would have a bad time if you expect windows to work like your favorite linux distro, but I find it perfectly serviceable for my work. it gets in my way far less than macOS.
mey 6y ago
Not sure what you mean by limited here? You have quite a few options are your disposal these days. (Depending on how you scope "power user") Cygwin (OSS compiled to Win APIs) Powershell (Native Windows fun) WSL 1 (Linux ABI Bindings to Win Kernel) WSL 2 (Thin Hyper-V running a full Linux Kernel, with Plan9 FS mappings to Windows filesystem) (Insider Preview, should be releasing this quarter) Hyper-V DOSBox Docker (Hyper-V, soon to take advantage of WSL-2) Most of the above also benefit from the work being done over at the new Terminal https://github.com/Microsoft/Terminal https://github.com/Microsoft/Terminal
- skissane 6y ago
  > DOSBox Much as I love DOSBox, I don't think it belongs on your list. In fact, DOSBox's command line capabilities are weak compared to genuine MS-DOS (which is already quite weak to begin with) – it doesn't fully support COMMAND.COM's syntax, it lacks many of the commands/utilities that come with MS-DOS, etc. – it is just the bare minimum to get most game launcher batch files to work. And that's unlikely to ever change, since DOSBox devs generally aren't interested in improving the accuracy of the MS-DOS emulation unless that improvement helps run some game – if you want a more accurate emulation of MS-DOS, they'll point you to FreeDOS instead.
  - mey 6y ago
    Fair point. I leave the post as is for posterity. I wonder if https://github.com/Microsoft/MS-DOS https://github.com/Microsoft/MS-DOS will improve that situation.
FpUser 6y ago
Linux is major platform for deployment of backend servers and Microsoft wants Windows to be viable development platform for Linux. Hence "frankesteining". Has nothing to do with the Windows being "limited" because it is not. I use Windows to develop Linux applications and am happy like a clam with this approach.
lonelappde 6y ago
"power user" == someone who uses power tools like Tim the Tool Man Taylor
mdoms 6y ago
> (why else would they frankestein an Ubuntu terminal into the latest Windows versions? Certainly not to help you administer your Windows system, which is not at all what it is intended for.
pjmlp 6y ago
To sell Windows laptops to people that buy Apple laptops to actually develop GNU/Linux software instead of supporting OEMs like Dell, System76 and Tuxedo, and don't care one second about Apple or Microsoft developer platforms.

sosborn 6y ago

> No, I do not want to open system preferences every time I want to launch something. I am a power user. You don't have to. Right click on the icon and select 'open.' https://support.apple.com/en-gu/guide/mac-help/mh40616/10.15/mac/10.15 https://support.apple.com/en-gu/guide/mac-help/mh40616/10.15...

cthaeh 6y ago
That is like 3 steps more than it should be. There should be a global setting to tell apple to fuck off with their security bullshit.
- envy2 6y ago
  There is: sudo spctl --master-disable Then choose "Anywhere" under "Allow apps from..." in the Security & Privacy preferences. You'll never be bothered again.
mwfunk 6y ago
Also, it should be noted that this is only the first time you launch the untrusted app. After that the system considers the app to be trusted and doesn't bug you about it. But self-described power users already know all this stuff, so I'm sure this isn't news to anyone. Self-described power users know everything about everything, or else they wouldn't describe themselves as power users. It's why they're so revered for their humility and lack of obvious cognitive biases throughout the world.

forgotpwd16 6y ago

For every day users, that is those wanting access to email, social media, an office suite, etc I will argue that Ubuntu or Mint is fine. Even for other users, the most frequent issue that I've seen being mentioned is Windows-only software. If there is no such thing then the aforementioned distros should be fine. Also, there was never unlimited access in Android unless you had a rooted device. Probably there will be a way around no-exec for rooted users, probably setting up an app as trusted. Nevertheless, this change is really cumbersome and it seems Android is slowly turning to iOS lockdown-wise.

pathartl 6y ago
> For every day users, that is those wanting access to email, social media, an office suite, etc I will argue that Ubuntu or Mint is fine. Yes, it is fine, but that doesn't mean people actually use it. I'm just highlighting that Linux is generally not thought of as a large market for most consumers. The point about root is a good one.
zozbot234 6y ago
Rooted users can freely alter or disable enforcement for any SELinux policy. None of this will affect them. (OTOH, many apps can't be installed or function on a rooted device due to SafetyNet and the like. And no, there is no safe bypass of SafetyNet since Google can potentially require users to run a remotely-attested "stock" firmware in order to pass the check.)

xoa 6y ago

>I hate that macOS is starting to go the iOS route of only letting me run applications that are Apple certified. No, I do not want to open system preferences every time I want to launch something. I am a power user. Yeah, such a power user that you can't use any one of the easy, documented ways to deal with that? You're not exactly helping your case here. >Put it behind some shell command or something... but have it easily documented and marketed towards people like me. sudo spctl --master-disable Man page for spctl is all there. Or how about quarantine? That's just controlled by an extended attribute (com.apple.quarantine) and you can remove it (interactively or via script including recursively down a directory tree) with xattr. Want to totally disable SIP too? That's also documented and there, boot to recovery, pull up the terminal and csrutil disable With SIP off you can also then modify what it applies to in a more fine grained way if you want. Yeah, Apple has put up more guardrails in macOS. But contrary to your assertion, enhanced security is plenty useful for "power users" too. Being a power user doesn't mean that it's nice to have some bad software clobber your install or a zero-day nail you. Some of the new security features could definitely be made much more easily useful for power users sure, up to and including having a GUI on them. It'd be nice if Apple had functionality to easily have your own root signing setup alongside theirs, so that we could take advantage of all the signing mojo as well. And it's reasonable long term to be concerned about a day when Macs also have hardware trust chains and what happens then. But for the time being macOS remains 100% modifiable for an actual genuine power user. The new stuff can be turned off, and more easily arguably then back when you needed to recompile your own kernel to mess with kern.securelevel and the like. Somehow someone in the company continues to open source a certain amount of macOS same as the old days, see https://opensource.apple.com/ https://opensource.apple.com/.

pathartl 6y ago
Ah, see, now that's good. I don't use macOS enough so I've not known about that. > It'd be nice if Apple had functionality to easily have your own root signing setup alongside theirs, so that we could take advantage of all the signing mojo as well. Yeah, that would be very developer friendly without breaking their shields too much. Also no argument that macOS isn't modifiable. However with the general dismantlement of things like AppleScript I feel like we've already passed the golden age of the OS.

txcwpalpha 6y ago

I totally get and agree with you, but the notion of Windows not having an overbearing security policy makes me laugh. MacOS is frustrating in some ways, but at least when I do 'sudo __' it generally allows me to do whatever I want. Windows, on the other hand.... the amount of times I've yelled "I AM THE ADMINISTRATOR!" at my PC is too damn high. Getting a "You do not have permission to access that file" even when I'm logged in as an Administrator is my bane.

larrik 6y ago

As someone who has been on Linux a long time, but still has to support family members using Windows, here's my perspective: 1) Linux is usually easier in the "happy case", where everything works as it should, and it supports everything that the user needs. 2) Linux is way way way less likely to just change something and break the whole system while the user is sleeping. (This was REAL fun with my grandparents-in-law when their Dell All-in-One PC decided to upgrade itself from Windows 8.1 to Win10 despite Dell not having drivers for Win10 on their fancy custom monitor. I have to fix it for them every 6 months now.) 3) Searching the web for Windows solutions to your issues without being a computer expert feels like it has a >80% of infecting your computer with malware or getting you on the phone with a scammer. As a computer expert it's like 20% (not even zero!). 4) Fixing a Linux problem can be painful, but is often "copy and paste these config lines into this config". Arcane. 5) Fixing a Windows problem can involve having to go into the registry, which can't be copy/pasted and is extremely difficult AND dangerous. (There probably IS a way to copy/paste it, but I don't know it). 6) That said, it's easier to fall off the "happy path" and into real trouble in Linux. Fixing the issue by randomly clicking stuff is more likely to work in Windows than Linux. 7) It's way easier to find someone you know to help you on Windows than Linux, for now. 8) Gaming is still so much better on Windows, unfortunately, but the gap is closing. 9) The few times I've gotten family members to try Linux, they called me LESS often for support. Even on laptops! 10) Windows is becoming increasingly user hostile in every way. Ads, forced updates, forced settings changes, privacy issues, etc.

ClumsyPilot 6y ago
The update policy is the right choice. I have come across so many people who were he always was too clever by half and disabled security updates for all kinds of incoherent reasons. To "stop spying", "keep out NSA" or because they were afraid their cracked Windows version would go poof. Keeping billions of unpatched devices is disastrous form the point of view of malware.
- winkeltripel 6y ago
  having updates forced ON is the right choice. The mechanism used in windows 10 is very user hostile, and needlessly so.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

Dahoon 6y ago

>there's going to be some apps that just need pretty much unlimited access to my device That is what root access is for. Non-root should never have "pretty much unlimited access" to a device.

yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago

> I'm really starting to despise most OS's for having such an overbearing security policy. I think it's really why I've stuck with Windows for so long. For sure Windows is not as user-stupid as something like macOS, iOS, Android, etc... but for me as a power user it's just about as powerful as I need to be. > I'm not even considering *nix distros here because honestly the market for every day users for something like Ubuntu or Mint is really small, and those are possibly the most end-user friendly. Like, I sympathize, I really do, but you're complaining about OSs restricting your freedom while avoiding the OSs that don't restrict your freedom. Yes, Darwin and NT should behave better, but they don't. It absolutely sucks that the options are "supports most commercial software" XOR "lets user control their own device", with some options splitting the difference (ex. ChromeOS possibly with developer mode, Android rooted or with a custom ROM), but the option is there.

noisy_boy 6y ago

We have two laptops running Linux in our home. Two use cases: - Me: can install a distro/troubleshoot things on cli/like to endlessly tinker with DEs etc. Linux lets me do all this and more. - My daugther: just wants to get on with classwork, music, videos, Zoom/Skype/Google Meet etc. Too young to ask which OS the laptop was running. Was comfortable on XFCE within few days for her daily needs. Linux serves both of us so well without restricting us or getting in the way. Being rock solid and friendly enough for average users while having the freedom/flexibility under the hood have been the big reasons why I have stuck with it for more than a decade.

Skunkleton 6y ago

> Windows is not as user-stupid as something like macOS, iOS, Android, etc... Even linux distros go down this path from time to time. For example, with systemd linger, or when ubuntu got rid of the root account. I don't like thinking of it as user-stupid. For example when I type sudo, I tend to automatically think a little harder about what I am about to do.

pjmlp 6y ago

Eventually you won't have any option left. "How Windows 10X runs UWP and Win32 apps" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztrmrIlgbIc&list=PLWZJrkeLOrbZ3CMHpbglE4NyJSEo-_qhr&index=5&t=0s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztrmrIlgbIc&list=PLWZJrkeLOr...