5 ms·

YCombinator has a financial incentive to support the Chinese regime.

im3w1l 6y ago
Hacker news and dang in particular has a very good track record of even handed and well thought of moderation. They have definitely earned benefit of the doubt from me. Let's wait a little before bringing the torches.
- dooglius 6y ago
  And how exactly did you determine this track record? It's not as if there's a log or appeals process...
  - yorwba 6y ago
    The log is https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... The appeals process is to write to hn@ycombinator.com (Contact link in the footer.)
    - viklove 6y ago
      That's not a log, not even close. It's a link to dang's comment history, not a list of every comment/submission that has been deleted by the moderation team. Go ahead and downvote me, doesn't make what I'm saying wrong.
      - kjaftaedi 6y ago
        AKA you want a tool that can be used by spammers to game the system. If you don't like the moderation, apply to be a moderator.. or start your own forum.
        viklove 6y ago
        I have: https://plebia.io https://plebia.io The moderation is 100% transparent and you can see a log of every comment/submission that a moderator has removed. Furthermore, each subforum can control their own moderation team through a voting system. Moderators should serve their users, not rule over them as dictators.
      - joenot443 6y ago
        Can you think of any popular services with a moderation team which publishes such a log? I definitely can't.
        dooglius 6y ago
        https://lobste.rs/about#transparency https://lobste.rs/about#transparency
- crankylinuxuser 6y ago
  I would think that having more transparency (eg: moderation/removal log) is much more appropriate than "he looks good to me". I've already seen a few times where content demeaning YC companies mysteriously got disappeared... and then summarily blamed on automated removal. Who's right? No clue. But being able to see that log as it happens would be a significant good faith action.
  - Beldin 6y ago
    This leads to am interesting security question: how to achieve real transparency? I mean HN could publish a ranking algorithm and claim that that is what they use. But then we still wouldn't know (1) if that is really what's running in the background, (2) if that is really receiving user inputs that lead to the observed outcome. I'm guessing for most people here the programming assignment "create a fake log including these real inputs so that this story is suddenly dropped according to the ranking algorithm" isn't that hard. I think that in the end, you end up trusting something. (Eg. Is the log fake or real?) IF that is so, you might as well design the system around a predetermined root of trust... here, the moderators.
    - crankylinuxuser 6y ago
      I also think that "real transparency" is something one can approach. Just because complete transparency is nigh impossible doesn't mean the steps towards it is worthless. And there is always a lower layer one can point at that is opaque... right down to the silicon.
  - zelphirkalt 6y ago
    Perhaps both are correct. You can automatically remove "content demeaning YC companies".
vixen99 6y ago
Good to be aware of that.
dang 6y ago
It does? What incentive?
- ddevault 6y ago
  YC wound down YC China, but still committed to funding Chinese companies[0], in a blog post carefully written to avoid explaining YC's motivations. And beyond that - how much Chinese money is invested in YC startups? How many YC companies have exited by bringing Chinese money to YC's coffers? [0] https://blog.ycombinator.com/an-update-on-yc-china/ https://blog.ycombinator.com/an-update-on-yc-china/
  - dang 6y ago
    I have absolutely no idea, but I'd bet it's extremely little because I've never heard of anything. In any case, this strikes me as weak sauce. You can make up purity tests to accuse anybody of anything, and if you choose to read that blog post as signifying "support for the Chinese regime", that is entirely your fantasy. In any case, this has zero effect on HN moderation. It had zero effect while YC China was being set up, zero effect while YC China was being wound down, and zero effect regardless of whatever "Chinese money" you're referring to, which you seem to know more about than I do. The only effect any of this has on HN moderation is people making up dark insinuations about it and posting them to HN. I expect that kind of thing from trolls but it's pretty weird to see you stoop to it.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
    - ddevault 6y ago
      I respect you as a moderator and I think that on the whole, you do a good job - but ultimately, the YC logo is up there on the top left of every HN page. You have earned the presumption of goodwill in almost all of your moderation actions, but when incentives favor YC, you need to (and will always need to) go out of your way to prove that you're addressing these issues without bias. I saw your comment earlier about this particular case - the flamewar detector went off. This would be a good thing to bubble up somewhere for transparency. I've mentioned many times that a public moderation log for HN would be a very good idea, and it would avoid scenarios like this entirely. Again, I have a lot of respect for you as a moderator, but that is dependent on being able to push back when HN moderation fails. I've gone to bat for you before; it's only fair that I get to criticise you, too. Maybe this was a bit of a low blow, and I apologise for that, but it highlights places where HN moderation can be improved all the same. I don't think that pushing to have all of these discussions in private is going to be acceptable.

Hacker news and dang in particular has a very good track record of even handed and well thought of moderation. They have definitely earned benefit of the doubt from me. Let's wait a little before bringing the torches.

dooglius 6y ago
And how exactly did you determine this track record? It's not as if there's a log or appeals process...
- yorwba 6y ago
  The log is https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... The appeals process is to write to hn@ycombinator.com (Contact link in the footer.)
  - viklove 6y ago
    That's not a log, not even close. It's a link to dang's comment history, not a list of every comment/submission that has been deleted by the moderation team. Go ahead and downvote me, doesn't make what I'm saying wrong.
    - kjaftaedi 6y ago
      AKA you want a tool that can be used by spammers to game the system. If you don't like the moderation, apply to be a moderator.. or start your own forum.
      - viklove 6y ago
        I have: https://plebia.io https://plebia.io The moderation is 100% transparent and you can see a log of every comment/submission that a moderator has removed. Furthermore, each subforum can control their own moderation team through a voting system. Moderators should serve their users, not rule over them as dictators.
    - joenot443 6y ago
      Can you think of any popular services with a moderation team which publishes such a log? I definitely can't.
      - dooglius 6y ago
        https://lobste.rs/about#transparency https://lobste.rs/about#transparency
crankylinuxuser 6y ago
I would think that having more transparency (eg: moderation/removal log) is much more appropriate than "he looks good to me". I've already seen a few times where content demeaning YC companies mysteriously got disappeared... and then summarily blamed on automated removal. Who's right? No clue. But being able to see that log as it happens would be a significant good faith action.
- Beldin 6y ago
  This leads to am interesting security question: how to achieve real transparency? I mean HN could publish a ranking algorithm and claim that that is what they use. But then we still wouldn't know (1) if that is really what's running in the background, (2) if that is really receiving user inputs that lead to the observed outcome. I'm guessing for most people here the programming assignment "create a fake log including these real inputs so that this story is suddenly dropped according to the ranking algorithm" isn't that hard. I think that in the end, you end up trusting something. (Eg. Is the log fake or real?) IF that is so, you might as well design the system around a predetermined root of trust... here, the moderators.
  - crankylinuxuser 6y ago
    I also think that "real transparency" is something one can approach. Just because complete transparency is nigh impossible doesn't mean the steps towards it is worthless. And there is always a lower layer one can point at that is opaque... right down to the silicon.
- zelphirkalt 6y ago
  Perhaps both are correct. You can automatically remove "content demeaning YC companies".

vixen99 6y ago

Good to be aware of that.

dang 6y ago

It does? What incentive?

ddevault 6y ago
YC wound down YC China, but still committed to funding Chinese companies[0], in a blog post carefully written to avoid explaining YC's motivations. And beyond that - how much Chinese money is invested in YC startups? How many YC companies have exited by bringing Chinese money to YC's coffers? [0] https://blog.ycombinator.com/an-update-on-yc-china/ https://blog.ycombinator.com/an-update-on-yc-china/
- dang 6y ago
  I have absolutely no idea, but I'd bet it's extremely little because I've never heard of anything. In any case, this strikes me as weak sauce. You can make up purity tests to accuse anybody of anything, and if you choose to read that blog post as signifying "support for the Chinese regime", that is entirely your fantasy. In any case, this has zero effect on HN moderation. It had zero effect while YC China was being set up, zero effect while YC China was being wound down, and zero effect regardless of whatever "Chinese money" you're referring to, which you seem to know more about than I do. The only effect any of this has on HN moderation is people making up dark insinuations about it and posting them to HN. I expect that kind of thing from trolls but it's pretty weird to see you stoop to it.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - ddevault 6y ago
    I respect you as a moderator and I think that on the whole, you do a good job - but ultimately, the YC logo is up there on the top left of every HN page. You have earned the presumption of goodwill in almost all of your moderation actions, but when incentives favor YC, you need to (and will always need to) go out of your way to prove that you're addressing these issues without bias. I saw your comment earlier about this particular case - the flamewar detector went off. This would be a good thing to bubble up somewhere for transparency. I've mentioned many times that a public moderation log for HN would be a very good idea, and it would avoid scenarios like this entirely. Again, I have a lot of respect for you as a moderator, but that is dependent on being able to push back when HN moderation fails. I've gone to bat for you before; it's only fair that I get to criticise you, too. Maybe this was a bit of a low blow, and I apologise for that, but it highlights places where HN moderation can be improved all the same. I don't think that pushing to have all of these discussions in private is going to be acceptable.