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I think this method is called a "shadow ban" on Reddit. You can see your comment on the sub only when logged in.

by comprev 6y ago

jacknews 6y ago
Yes that's it exactly, thanks for naming the practice. It should be banned, lol.
- bitwize 6y ago
  It's used here on Hackernews too. It contains troll harassment. By not letting a troll know they've been banned, you remove the incentive they might have to create a new account to continue their harassment.
  - zozbot234 6y ago
    HN has the "showdead" option to reveal those comments, though. And the ban gets reversed altogether once enough users have "vouched" for them.
  - crankylinuxuser 6y ago
    > It contains troll harassment. By not letting a troll know they've been banned, you remove the incentive they might have to create a new account to continue their harassment. Completely false. It only adds another step, which is "check account with a private session". I'm sure eventually shadowbanning will also look at what IP address and also lie as well. But right now I don't know any sites that do that. But shadowbanning is a disgusting practice, and is completely anti-transparency. It can be used to further political agendas (like the article is about). And if an account is spewing troll garbage, just delete, add to a mod log, and close. But very few sites are open like this. (The only site I'm aware of was the old site kuro5hin.org). edit: And not only shadowbanning, but flags/dead also are abused here on HN. Its all too easy for a legit post with a differing (non-trollish) viewpoint that differs from the status quo, get -1'ed into oblivion, and then summarily flaggedkilled. Again, I've seen this happen when it appeared that there was some sort of concerted campaign to silence certain opinions. Requests to require a comment for flags/-1's, or even a 'who modded this' have gone unanswered.
    - effingwewt 6y ago
      As is what happened to your comment here. As soon as comments go up they are dead, or -1 so hard mins after posting its almost invisible though not quite dead. I assume my comments are the same. As an aside, this taught me early on with this site never to look for replies to my comments. Also aided by the fact HN does not notify you of replies, which then kills most discourse unless the drive-by kind. It's gotten to the point where I skip JUST to the showdead comments here just to see the dissenting views, or more often as of late, correct information someone has for no reason flagged. Fuck a shadowban, this forum pretends to be adult and treat us as such, but as with most things it's just lipservice. Its like mentioning the very obvious trolls on any post critical of china. here comes dang to say 'you cant do that' while the trolls post all over the forum and kill all dissenting comments. We have all seen this time and again but WE are the dicks for pointing it out. Pretending astroturfing doesnt gappen hurts the forums. Pretending dissenting comments arent there just hurts the forums. Ive been here for a looong time, 3rd account over the years (forgotten pws or whatever, I never care as I've never posted enough to have the karma to even downvote), but it feels like this place has reached the tipping point. So I'm here, for the moment, but mostly to read, and only until something better comes along.
  - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
    I asked DanG about shadowbanning. He straightforwardly said they don't do it.
  - yesenadam 6y ago
    > It's used here on Hackernews too. Source? Many times I've seen a comment that's dead for unknown reasons, then realized all that user's comments are dead. Then tracing back in their history to the point that started (I'm curious!), inevitably there's dang explaining patiently to them why they've been banned (and usually doesn't sound like a first warning, but the last of many) and what to do about it. I've never seen a user's comment history just mysteriously turn dead at some point for no reason. (A couple of times I've seen every comment of a user is dead for no apparent reason, I figure it's from being a sock puppet or something.) So that makes me think shadow banning is not used. There are subterranean dwellers who comment dead comments for years, apparently not knowing no-one can read them, but trace back their history - and they know very well they're blocked, and usually have a conspiracy theory to explain why. Maybe people see those comments and assume they're shadow banned. Because who would spend years writing dead comments on HN?!
    - dang 6y ago
      We still use shadowbanning, but only when an account is new and shows signs of spamming or trolling. When an account has an established history then we tell people we're banning them and why. Past explanations here: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20shadowban&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
- Cthulhu_ 6y ago
  It's a very effective method of thwarting trolls / unwanted commenters though. Before shadow bans, people would get Very Upset at whoever banned them and they'd reach out to the content moderators to try and get unbanned, or they'd just create a new account. If implemented right, the undesirables aren't even aware they're banned; the trolls just don't get fed anymore, and ideally they get bored and move away again. If you don't want someone on your platform for whatever reason, shadowbanning has proven to be much more effective than regular banning. I mean I could be shadowbanned on here for all I know, I never check replies to my comments, lol.
  - bjourne 6y ago
    But that it is efficient doesn't mean that it is not also crap. Suppose there is a community where people argue for X or Y. The moderators like X. 50 % of the users are assholes and 50 % are level-headed. The moderators shadow-ban all users who likes Y and who also level-headed. What you have left are the users who like X and assholes who like Y. Uninvolved people who visit the community have no idea the moderators are so underhanded so appears to them that everyone who likes Y is an asshole. Thereby giving them the impression that X is more likable. On Reddit tons of political subs moderated in that way. It's one of the reasons why there's multiple subs for Covid news. One for those who think more lock-down is needed and one for those do favor less lock-down.
    - tehwebguy 6y ago
      I think when you take a look at the prevalence and profitability of spam on YouTube, see the fake contest links posted below popular videos etc., shadow banning is extremely net positive.
  - pacala 6y ago
    > the undesirables aren't even aware they're banned Chilling. Given the scope of BigTech, 10x chilling. An 'undesirable' can end up on a secret black list for whatever petty reason, and then have a huge streak of targeted algorithmic 'bad luck' to destroy their life. Can't find a good job, a good mate, a good house, everything costs you 15% more? It must be something wrong with you.
- jasonlotito 6y ago
  Why?
  - jacknews 6y ago
    Why not? It's a deceitful practice and brings to mind those dystopic novels like Brave New World, Fahrenheit 451 etc. Urban dictionary has a view, lol: "Considered underhanded chicken-shit behavior." https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shadowban https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shadowban
    - tehwebguy 6y ago
      It is extremely important to make trolling more difficult than policing trolling. If you can’t get over that hump you can’t have comments beyond a certain scale.
      - jansan 6y ago
        It's still a shitty way of doing it, even though there may be no better alternatives with less collateral damage available.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ASalazarMX 6y ago
It's supposed to be used only for insistently toxic users, since they're less likely to notice and create another account for a while. Using this for blanket censoring is deceitful.
- csense 6y ago
  > Using this for blanket censoring is deceitful. From the point of view of the censor, this is a feature. Censorship is more effective if the people being censored don't realize it's happening. Also, I'm not sure Google has any choice in the matter of complying with any and all of China's demands, if they have any operations in China. If Google has any boots on the ground in China, it's nothing more nor less than a building full of potential hostages: China can arrest those personnel at any time if Google doesn't fully cooperate with any and all demands to participate in this censorship and gaslighting. If Google takes that whole "do no evil" thing seriously, doesn't put boots on the ground and tries to operate entirely outside Chinese borders, China'll just cut Google off at the Great Firewall and give all the market opportunities to others. The classic play of making an offer you can't refuse...

I think this method is called a "shadow ban" on Reddit. You can see your comment on the sub only when logged in.

jacknews 6y ago

Yes that's it exactly, thanks for naming the practice. It should be banned, lol.

bitwize 6y ago
It's used here on Hackernews too. It contains troll harassment. By not letting a troll know they've been banned, you remove the incentive they might have to create a new account to continue their harassment.
- zozbot234 6y ago
  HN has the "showdead" option to reveal those comments, though. And the ban gets reversed altogether once enough users have "vouched" for them.
- crankylinuxuser 6y ago
  > It contains troll harassment. By not letting a troll know they've been banned, you remove the incentive they might have to create a new account to continue their harassment. Completely false. It only adds another step, which is "check account with a private session". I'm sure eventually shadowbanning will also look at what IP address and also lie as well. But right now I don't know any sites that do that. But shadowbanning is a disgusting practice, and is completely anti-transparency. It can be used to further political agendas (like the article is about). And if an account is spewing troll garbage, just delete, add to a mod log, and close. But very few sites are open like this. (The only site I'm aware of was the old site kuro5hin.org). edit: And not only shadowbanning, but flags/dead also are abused here on HN. Its all too easy for a legit post with a differing (non-trollish) viewpoint that differs from the status quo, get -1'ed into oblivion, and then summarily flaggedkilled. Again, I've seen this happen when it appeared that there was some sort of concerted campaign to silence certain opinions. Requests to require a comment for flags/-1's, or even a 'who modded this' have gone unanswered.
  - effingwewt 6y ago
    As is what happened to your comment here. As soon as comments go up they are dead, or -1 so hard mins after posting its almost invisible though not quite dead. I assume my comments are the same. As an aside, this taught me early on with this site never to look for replies to my comments. Also aided by the fact HN does not notify you of replies, which then kills most discourse unless the drive-by kind. It's gotten to the point where I skip JUST to the showdead comments here just to see the dissenting views, or more often as of late, correct information someone has for no reason flagged. Fuck a shadowban, this forum pretends to be adult and treat us as such, but as with most things it's just lipservice. Its like mentioning the very obvious trolls on any post critical of china. here comes dang to say 'you cant do that' while the trolls post all over the forum and kill all dissenting comments. We have all seen this time and again but WE are the dicks for pointing it out. Pretending astroturfing doesnt gappen hurts the forums. Pretending dissenting comments arent there just hurts the forums. Ive been here for a looong time, 3rd account over the years (forgotten pws or whatever, I never care as I've never posted enough to have the karma to even downvote), but it feels like this place has reached the tipping point. So I'm here, for the moment, but mostly to read, and only until something better comes along.
- throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
  I asked DanG about shadowbanning. He straightforwardly said they don't do it.
- yesenadam 6y ago
  > It's used here on Hackernews too. Source? Many times I've seen a comment that's dead for unknown reasons, then realized all that user's comments are dead. Then tracing back in their history to the point that started (I'm curious!), inevitably there's dang explaining patiently to them why they've been banned (and usually doesn't sound like a first warning, but the last of many) and what to do about it. I've never seen a user's comment history just mysteriously turn dead at some point for no reason. (A couple of times I've seen every comment of a user is dead for no apparent reason, I figure it's from being a sock puppet or something.) So that makes me think shadow banning is not used. There are subterranean dwellers who comment dead comments for years, apparently not knowing no-one can read them, but trace back their history - and they know very well they're blocked, and usually have a conspiracy theory to explain why. Maybe people see those comments and assume they're shadow banned. Because who would spend years writing dead comments on HN?!
  - dang 6y ago
    We still use shadowbanning, but only when an account is new and shows signs of spamming or trolling. When an account has an established history then we tell people we're banning them and why. Past explanations here: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20shadowban&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
Cthulhu_ 6y ago
It's a very effective method of thwarting trolls / unwanted commenters though. Before shadow bans, people would get Very Upset at whoever banned them and they'd reach out to the content moderators to try and get unbanned, or they'd just create a new account. If implemented right, the undesirables aren't even aware they're banned; the trolls just don't get fed anymore, and ideally they get bored and move away again. If you don't want someone on your platform for whatever reason, shadowbanning has proven to be much more effective than regular banning. I mean I could be shadowbanned on here for all I know, I never check replies to my comments, lol.
- bjourne 6y ago
  But that it is efficient doesn't mean that it is not also crap. Suppose there is a community where people argue for X or Y. The moderators like X. 50 % of the users are assholes and 50 % are level-headed. The moderators shadow-ban all users who likes Y and who also level-headed. What you have left are the users who like X and assholes who like Y. Uninvolved people who visit the community have no idea the moderators are so underhanded so appears to them that everyone who likes Y is an asshole. Thereby giving them the impression that X is more likable. On Reddit tons of political subs moderated in that way. It's one of the reasons why there's multiple subs for Covid news. One for those who think more lock-down is needed and one for those do favor less lock-down.
  - tehwebguy 6y ago
    I think when you take a look at the prevalence and profitability of spam on YouTube, see the fake contest links posted below popular videos etc., shadow banning is extremely net positive.
- pacala 6y ago
  > the undesirables aren't even aware they're banned Chilling. Given the scope of BigTech, 10x chilling. An 'undesirable' can end up on a secret black list for whatever petty reason, and then have a huge streak of targeted algorithmic 'bad luck' to destroy their life. Can't find a good job, a good mate, a good house, everything costs you 15% more? It must be something wrong with you.
jasonlotito 6y ago
Why?
- jacknews 6y ago
  Why not? It's a deceitful practice and brings to mind those dystopic novels like Brave New World, Fahrenheit 451 etc. Urban dictionary has a view, lol: "Considered underhanded chicken-shit behavior." https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shadowban https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shadowban
  - tehwebguy 6y ago
    It is extremely important to make trolling more difficult than policing trolling. If you can’t get over that hump you can’t have comments beyond a certain scale.
    - jansan 6y ago
      It's still a shitty way of doing it, even though there may be no better alternatives with less collateral damage available.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

ASalazarMX 6y ago

It's supposed to be used only for insistently toxic users, since they're less likely to notice and create another account for a while. Using this for blanket censoring is deceitful.

csense 6y ago
> Using this for blanket censoring is deceitful. From the point of view of the censor, this is a feature. Censorship is more effective if the people being censored don't realize it's happening. Also, I'm not sure Google has any choice in the matter of complying with any and all of China's demands, if they have any operations in China. If Google has any boots on the ground in China, it's nothing more nor less than a building full of potential hostages: China can arrest those personnel at any time if Google doesn't fully cooperate with any and all demands to participate in this censorship and gaslighting. If Google takes that whole "do no evil" thing seriously, doesn't put boots on the ground and tries to operate entirely outside Chinese borders, China'll just cut Google off at the Great Firewall and give all the market opportunities to others. The classic play of making an offer you can't refuse...