5 ms·

Plenty of European countries are complicit in similar acts of their own, and many more tacitly assist. I don't think many deserve being painted as a victim of t

Plenty of European countries are complicit in similar acts of their own, and many more tacitly assist. I don't think many deserve being painted as a victim of this situation. There's an article right now on the FP about the Netherlands helping GCHQ break Argentinean encryption. In any case, I think the hypocrisy makes sense if you consider that the people saying this are from places (the US + close allies) that probably, all things considered, benefit [EDIT:] more than others by government privacy invasions. The goal of these governments is presumably to further their own interests at the cost of everyone else's. Why else do several of these allies willingly sign up to trade information with the NSA? EDIT: "more than they are harmed" => "more than others"

dijit 6y ago
> There's an article right now on the FP about the Netherlands helping GCHQ break Argentinean encryption. EU<->EU cooperation is different though than US<->EU cooperation. I will very much agree though, that GCHQ has been in bed with NSA for far too long and it's disgusting. But I think there's a clear delineation between: "Our government does shady things" and "Another nations government does shady things, and incidentally we're entirely dependent on them not to do it to us".
- acqq 6y ago
  > GCHQ has been in bed with NSA for far too long and it's disgusting See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes But also: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/nsa-scandal-rekindles-in-germany-with-an-ironic-twist/2015/04/30/030ec9e0-ee7e-11e4-8050-839e9234b303_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/nsa-scandal-reki... "Germans, still outraged by NSA spying, learn their country may have helped (2015)"
- vinay427 6y ago
  This actually preceded the EU as it was during the Falklands situation, and I don't think EU<->EU cooperation is inherently different if interests are misaligned (which has happened many times between EU members), or if a country (e.g. the UK) chooses to leave the EU. I was hoping to at least illustrate that European countries (particularly EU countries) have for many years gone out of their way to invade the privacy of foreign citizens when it benefits them, just as the US feels free to do so today. I don't support this in either case, and rereading my initial comment I made a quick edit that I think makes this a bit more clear. My point is more that if we're going to claim that certain countries are the victims of US surveillance, the countries that opt into cooperating and benefit more often than not really shouldn't be at the top of the list. The US and most western European countries (or certainly those which cooperate with the US) do not see each other as their foremost adversaries, which I suspect is why both seem to willingly sign up for this cooperation. I would instead suggest that the victims of this relationship are limited to third-parties that don't have anything to gain but are still vulnerable to these extrajudicial privacy invasions. EDIT: > But I think there's a clear delineation between: "Our government does shady things" and "Another nations government does shady things, and incidentally we're entirely dependent on them not to do it to us". Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but this sounds to me like it is an attempt to justify the hypocrisy you alluded to in the initial comment.
  - dijit 6y ago
    if I seem like I am hypocritical then it is because I don't scan these things as being the same at all. Cooperation is very different from dependence. The rest of your comment seems to assume that I'm talking about "bad things that we do to each other" and I'm not really talking about that at all, merely our dependence on a foreign ally that has unclear motives. Here's some things that I consider to be true: 1) Our intelligence services are in bed together, that's bad. 2) Our governments are blindly allowing (or in some cases supporting) monopolies of other nations industries. That's bad. 3) Our countries are both victims _and_ perpetrators, there's no black/white divide here. But our peoples will be worse off. 4) We're taking on a debt that has a very high interest later. I don't think cooperation and pooling of resources is the same as pinning an entire section of society on another country. For a concrete example, imagine that we're pretty friendly with Germany, we decide to let them be our postmen, they carry all post for us. Eventually we don't have the capacity to deliver mail anymore, the logistics are completely lost on us. The Germans open our mail, their government "allows" it, and there's nothing we can do because the post is somehow routed via Germany and not our jurisdiction anymore. We do nothing, because we trust the germans, maybe a stern warning, maybe certain mail has to be routed in-country. But the Germans say that this is stifling industry. Later, Germany invades poland, all our postmen are German, all the trucks are German, all the infrastructure that depends on post is German. You might argue that this is absurd, but this is how I see the situation with the USA.
- HenryBemis 6y ago
  > I will very much agree though, that GCHQ has been in bed with NSA for far too long and it's disgusting. It's wider than that. It feels like UK politicians have always been the loyal pets of US presidents/decisions/agendas, and that is more obvious when EU has a different approach, and the UK just moves on its own. UK has been in bed with the USA (practically USA's little pet) for a long time now. Jean-Claude Juncker said (and apologies, but I cannot find the quote) something along the line (regarding the Brexit-divorce) that "it wasn't a very good marriage to begin with". UK is the foothold of USA to disrupt a strong, united Europe. I say good riddance. This hurts me since I love the UK (but not what it stands for lately) and I am making my living here, but this shitshow has to stop. I sincerely hope that Boris won't burn the country down. So far he has done a pretty bad job all across the board (COVID deaths per 1mil, economy, Brexit 'negotiations'-hahahahaha). He's a true reverse Midas!!! He touches gold, it turns to shit.
  - Leherenn 6y ago
    Pretty much the reason De Gaulle didn't them in the union and they had to wait until he was dead to join.
C1sc0cat 6y ago
The UK and The Netherlands are NATO members mutual assistance when your attacked is a key part of NATO
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
swimfar 6y ago
I'm sure European governments love all the press that the US gets for this kind of stuff because it draws attention away from them. A lot of Europeans seem to know more about wiretapping in the US than in their own country. A 5 minute search will bring up lots of examples. These are a bit old, but I can't imagine any powers have been removed since the laws have been passed. (I apologize for the tone of some of these articles.) [1] 2003 Italy and the Netherlands top wiretap chart 76 and 62 wiretaps per 100k citizens, compared to 0.5 in the US (you could make an argument about the uncertainty in that measurement). [2] 2017 New Dutch law allows law enforcement to digitally wiretap your friends and family to get to you "Netherlands Senate passed a new surveillance and data mining law. The new law (available in Dutch) expands the government’s targeted and mass surveillance powers and were first introduced in 2015." [3] 2007 Dutch Law Threatens to Wiretap Family and Friends "The legislation under consideration allows for much more generalized information gathering—or “bulk” monitoring" "And since The Netherlands is a major hub for the fiber optic networks that carry huge amounts of information from many different countries, including the United States, the new law would open the way for the Dutch services to suck in communications that U.S. law might prevent the American intelligence agencies from tapping directly." [4,5] 2011 German politician reveals six months of private mobile phone data [1] https://edri.org/edrigramnumber2-14wiretap/ https://edri.org/edrigramnumber2-14wiretap/ [2] https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/new-dutch-law-allows-law-enforcement-digitally-wiretap-friends-family-get/ https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/new-dutch-law-all... [3] https://torguard.net/blog/dutch-law-threatens-to-wiretap-family-and-friends/ https://torguard.net/blog/dutch-law-threatens-to-wiretap-fam... [4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1EKvWot-3c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1EKvWot-3c [5] https://www.dw.com/en/german-politician-reveals-six-months-of-private-mobile-phone-data/a-14960858 https://www.dw.com/en/german-politician-reveals-six-months-o...
tossAfterUsing 6y ago
> I don't think many deserve being painted as a victim of this situation. Especially the least educated individual users are largely victims of this situation. Any who could possibly educate themselves further are proportionally less victimized and more complicit/approving. Open standards are the answer, and the more individual demand we can create for these products and services, the better served we will find ourselves.
eeZah7Ux 6y ago
> ... European countries are complicit ... don't think many deserve being painted as a victim of this situation This is not a dichotomy. Very often victims are made complicit to keep them quiet (e.g. in bribery, extortion...). Not many countries in the world dare refusing to cooperate with the USA

dijit 6y ago

> There's an article right now on the FP about the Netherlands helping GCHQ break Argentinean encryption. EU<->EU cooperation is different though than US<->EU cooperation. I will very much agree though, that GCHQ has been in bed with NSA for far too long and it's disgusting. But I think there's a clear delineation between: "Our government does shady things" and "Another nations government does shady things, and incidentally we're entirely dependent on them not to do it to us".

acqq 6y ago
> GCHQ has been in bed with NSA for far too long and it's disgusting See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes But also: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/nsa-scandal-rekindles-in-germany-with-an-ironic-twist/2015/04/30/030ec9e0-ee7e-11e4-8050-839e9234b303_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/nsa-scandal-reki... "Germans, still outraged by NSA spying, learn their country may have helped (2015)"
vinay427 6y ago
This actually preceded the EU as it was during the Falklands situation, and I don't think EU<->EU cooperation is inherently different if interests are misaligned (which has happened many times between EU members), or if a country (e.g. the UK) chooses to leave the EU. I was hoping to at least illustrate that European countries (particularly EU countries) have for many years gone out of their way to invade the privacy of foreign citizens when it benefits them, just as the US feels free to do so today. I don't support this in either case, and rereading my initial comment I made a quick edit that I think makes this a bit more clear. My point is more that if we're going to claim that certain countries are the victims of US surveillance, the countries that opt into cooperating and benefit more often than not really shouldn't be at the top of the list. The US and most western European countries (or certainly those which cooperate with the US) do not see each other as their foremost adversaries, which I suspect is why both seem to willingly sign up for this cooperation. I would instead suggest that the victims of this relationship are limited to third-parties that don't have anything to gain but are still vulnerable to these extrajudicial privacy invasions. EDIT: > But I think there's a clear delineation between: "Our government does shady things" and "Another nations government does shady things, and incidentally we're entirely dependent on them not to do it to us". Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but this sounds to me like it is an attempt to justify the hypocrisy you alluded to in the initial comment.
- dijit 6y ago
  if I seem like I am hypocritical then it is because I don't scan these things as being the same at all. Cooperation is very different from dependence. The rest of your comment seems to assume that I'm talking about "bad things that we do to each other" and I'm not really talking about that at all, merely our dependence on a foreign ally that has unclear motives. Here's some things that I consider to be true: 1) Our intelligence services are in bed together, that's bad. 2) Our governments are blindly allowing (or in some cases supporting) monopolies of other nations industries. That's bad. 3) Our countries are both victims _and_ perpetrators, there's no black/white divide here. But our peoples will be worse off. 4) We're taking on a debt that has a very high interest later. I don't think cooperation and pooling of resources is the same as pinning an entire section of society on another country. For a concrete example, imagine that we're pretty friendly with Germany, we decide to let them be our postmen, they carry all post for us. Eventually we don't have the capacity to deliver mail anymore, the logistics are completely lost on us. The Germans open our mail, their government "allows" it, and there's nothing we can do because the post is somehow routed via Germany and not our jurisdiction anymore. We do nothing, because we trust the germans, maybe a stern warning, maybe certain mail has to be routed in-country. But the Germans say that this is stifling industry. Later, Germany invades poland, all our postmen are German, all the trucks are German, all the infrastructure that depends on post is German. You might argue that this is absurd, but this is how I see the situation with the USA.
HenryBemis 6y ago
> I will very much agree though, that GCHQ has been in bed with NSA for far too long and it's disgusting. It's wider than that. It feels like UK politicians have always been the loyal pets of US presidents/decisions/agendas, and that is more obvious when EU has a different approach, and the UK just moves on its own. UK has been in bed with the USA (practically USA's little pet) for a long time now. Jean-Claude Juncker said (and apologies, but I cannot find the quote) something along the line (regarding the Brexit-divorce) that "it wasn't a very good marriage to begin with". UK is the foothold of USA to disrupt a strong, united Europe. I say good riddance. This hurts me since I love the UK (but not what it stands for lately) and I am making my living here, but this shitshow has to stop. I sincerely hope that Boris won't burn the country down. So far he has done a pretty bad job all across the board (COVID deaths per 1mil, economy, Brexit 'negotiations'-hahahahaha). He's a true reverse Midas!!! He touches gold, it turns to shit.
- Leherenn 6y ago
  Pretty much the reason De Gaulle didn't them in the union and they had to wait until he was dead to join.

C1sc0cat 6y ago

The UK and The Netherlands are NATO members mutual assistance when your attacked is a key part of NATO

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

swimfar 6y ago

I'm sure European governments love all the press that the US gets for this kind of stuff because it draws attention away from them. A lot of Europeans seem to know more about wiretapping in the US than in their own country. A 5 minute search will bring up lots of examples. These are a bit old, but I can't imagine any powers have been removed since the laws have been passed. (I apologize for the tone of some of these articles.) [1] 2003 Italy and the Netherlands top wiretap chart 76 and 62 wiretaps per 100k citizens, compared to 0.5 in the US (you could make an argument about the uncertainty in that measurement). [2] 2017 New Dutch law allows law enforcement to digitally wiretap your friends and family to get to you "Netherlands Senate passed a new surveillance and data mining law. The new law (available in Dutch) expands the government’s targeted and mass surveillance powers and were first introduced in 2015." [3] 2007 Dutch Law Threatens to Wiretap Family and Friends "The legislation under consideration allows for much more generalized information gathering—or “bulk” monitoring" "And since The Netherlands is a major hub for the fiber optic networks that carry huge amounts of information from many different countries, including the United States, the new law would open the way for the Dutch services to suck in communications that U.S. law might prevent the American intelligence agencies from tapping directly." [4,5] 2011 German politician reveals six months of private mobile phone data [1] https://edri.org/edrigramnumber2-14wiretap/ https://edri.org/edrigramnumber2-14wiretap/ [2] https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/new-dutch-law-allows-law-enforcement-digitally-wiretap-friends-family-get/ https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/new-dutch-law-all... [3] https://torguard.net/blog/dutch-law-threatens-to-wiretap-family-and-friends/ https://torguard.net/blog/dutch-law-threatens-to-wiretap-fam... [4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1EKvWot-3c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1EKvWot-3c [5] https://www.dw.com/en/german-politician-reveals-six-months-of-private-mobile-phone-data/a-14960858 https://www.dw.com/en/german-politician-reveals-six-months-o...

tossAfterUsing 6y ago

> I don't think many deserve being painted as a victim of this situation. Especially the least educated individual users are largely victims of this situation. Any who could possibly educate themselves further are proportionally less victimized and more complicit/approving. Open standards are the answer, and the more individual demand we can create for these products and services, the better served we will find ourselves.

eeZah7Ux 6y ago

> ... European countries are complicit ... don't think many deserve being painted as a victim of this situation This is not a dichotomy. Very often victims are made complicit to keep them quiet (e.g. in bribery, extortion...). Not many countries in the world dare refusing to cooperate with the USA