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I theorize nothing is truly conscious. Everything reacts from a cause & effect "chain of forces" exerted upon everything in the Universe. I'm curious what we wi

I theorize nothing is truly conscious. Everything reacts from a cause & effect "chain of forces" exerted upon everything in the Universe. I'm curious what we will learn when we can modify the human brain to be exactly the same as it was a year ago for an individual that volunteers to be such a test subject. Would all his/her memories be reverted back to that very day? Or would the experiment result in a failure because our concept of how we react to everything compared to other things in the universe is flawed.

rdruxn 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism
adrianmonk 6y ago
Although there are popular theories of the mind which include both free will and consciousness, the two aren't the same thing. There is no reason why, in principle, you can't have a deterministic thought process and a consciousness that observes and experiences these thoughts from the outside. There's also no reason why you couldn't have a deterministic form of consciousness that is a part of a deterministic thought process.
- abellerose 6y ago
  I think the two are simply illusions. Humans think of as free will and similar to thinking of having a consciousness in reality is just illusions at play. We can assume consciousness is similar to an outside external force that ends up with causing an outcome. Similar as a domino being interacting with another domino and resulting in a cause & effect outcome. I don't think humans are responsible at all for anything of their own doing. Some things are in fact impossible and even with how hard we desire them. My previous comment is suggesting that it would be interesting to learn if somehow the processing of thinking isn't happening purely in the brain. Such as if we could revert all neurons back to a previous state of time before external forces changed everything up. I like to theorize about the universe having some state that's stored somewhere outside of what's physically observable.
  - throwphoton 6y ago
    > I think the two are simply illusions I've never understood this line of reasoning. If consciousness, in the sense of subjective experience ("qualia"), is an illusion, that what is being fooled? It seems to just push the question one level deeper without providing any insight.
    - mikeyjk 6y ago
      It's our understanding/perception that is fooled. We feel like we are the conscious authors of our thoughts when really they are summoned from within and calculated for us. We feel like pilots but really we're riding coach. I feel like there is a chance I'm misinterpreting your question though, apologies if so.
      - throwphoton 6y ago
        I think you're combining consciousness and free will into a single thing. Consciousness lies in the subjective experience (in fact it seems like you allow for perception); whether you have any agency or are just a subjective experiencer "riding along" with deterministic fate is a separate matter.
        abellerose 6y ago
        You make a good point. As for me, its really hard to think of consciousness as real because it's similar to other things I'm forced to observe while previously I used to think I was somewhat in control. So I think thoughts or awareness are just like external forces making whatever happens from all the previous forces. I guess I'm wondering if we would still think we're conscious if we someday prove we're no different than a character in the video game the Sims. We currently think of the characters in the Sims as not having a conscious. But I guess we could be wrong if electrons somehow had a state being received and from everything that's happening in the universe for making it experience similar to what we do. Thus, the theory of panpsychism. But to me that just seems like consciousness is an illusion in the traditional sense because awareness has always felt like requiring more than a video game character being controlled by external forces.
rantwasp 6y ago
i don’t believe this is doable. you would have to observe the state and after that rebuild the state precisely. that’s a pipe dream. we like to believe we are in state A and transition to state B, but the brain (and our body) is one massive parallel biological computation which for all intents and purposes is irreversible.
- abellerose 6y ago
  Yes, we would have to send the same signals for a significant interval of time like it was a year ago and to the brain of the subject. Also having all the outside the body external forces aligning similar to the past and for the experiment to be successful for answering the question. It's a pipe dream but theoretically possible.
  - rantwasp 6y ago
    it depends. i do not think we even understand, in theory, how we would do something like this
axguscbklp 6y ago
I think that you might be using the term "consciousness" in a different way from how the article uses it. Do you not have subjective experience?
seemslegit 6y ago
I theorize nothing is truly tomato. There are just atoms, the space between them and forces that act on them.
- abellerose 6y ago
  That's actually a rewarding thought to think about.

rdruxn 6y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

adrianmonk 6y ago

Although there are popular theories of the mind which include both free will and consciousness, the two aren't the same thing. There is no reason why, in principle, you can't have a deterministic thought process and a consciousness that observes and experiences these thoughts from the outside. There's also no reason why you couldn't have a deterministic form of consciousness that is a part of a deterministic thought process.

abellerose 6y ago
I think the two are simply illusions. Humans think of as free will and similar to thinking of having a consciousness in reality is just illusions at play. We can assume consciousness is similar to an outside external force that ends up with causing an outcome. Similar as a domino being interacting with another domino and resulting in a cause & effect outcome. I don't think humans are responsible at all for anything of their own doing. Some things are in fact impossible and even with how hard we desire them. My previous comment is suggesting that it would be interesting to learn if somehow the processing of thinking isn't happening purely in the brain. Such as if we could revert all neurons back to a previous state of time before external forces changed everything up. I like to theorize about the universe having some state that's stored somewhere outside of what's physically observable.
- throwphoton 6y ago
  > I think the two are simply illusions I've never understood this line of reasoning. If consciousness, in the sense of subjective experience ("qualia"), is an illusion, that what is being fooled? It seems to just push the question one level deeper without providing any insight.
  - mikeyjk 6y ago
    It's our understanding/perception that is fooled. We feel like we are the conscious authors of our thoughts when really they are summoned from within and calculated for us. We feel like pilots but really we're riding coach. I feel like there is a chance I'm misinterpreting your question though, apologies if so.
    - throwphoton 6y ago
      I think you're combining consciousness and free will into a single thing. Consciousness lies in the subjective experience (in fact it seems like you allow for perception); whether you have any agency or are just a subjective experiencer "riding along" with deterministic fate is a separate matter.
      - abellerose 6y ago
        You make a good point. As for me, its really hard to think of consciousness as real because it's similar to other things I'm forced to observe while previously I used to think I was somewhat in control. So I think thoughts or awareness are just like external forces making whatever happens from all the previous forces. I guess I'm wondering if we would still think we're conscious if we someday prove we're no different than a character in the video game the Sims. We currently think of the characters in the Sims as not having a conscious. But I guess we could be wrong if electrons somehow had a state being received and from everything that's happening in the universe for making it experience similar to what we do. Thus, the theory of panpsychism. But to me that just seems like consciousness is an illusion in the traditional sense because awareness has always felt like requiring more than a video game character being controlled by external forces.

rantwasp 6y ago

i don’t believe this is doable. you would have to observe the state and after that rebuild the state precisely. that’s a pipe dream. we like to believe we are in state A and transition to state B, but the brain (and our body) is one massive parallel biological computation which for all intents and purposes is irreversible.

abellerose 6y ago
Yes, we would have to send the same signals for a significant interval of time like it was a year ago and to the brain of the subject. Also having all the outside the body external forces aligning similar to the past and for the experiment to be successful for answering the question. It's a pipe dream but theoretically possible.
- rantwasp 6y ago
  it depends. i do not think we even understand, in theory, how we would do something like this

axguscbklp 6y ago

I think that you might be using the term "consciousness" in a different way from how the article uses it. Do you not have subjective experience?

seemslegit 6y ago

I theorize nothing is truly tomato. There are just atoms, the space between them and forces that act on them.

abellerose 6y ago
That's actually a rewarding thought to think about.