4 ms·

I think there is much to be said for storing physical media like photos and microfilm, such that the only technology you need to recover the information is a le

by ruytlm 6y ago

I think there is much to be said for storing physical media like photos and microfilm, such that the only technology you need to recover the information is a lens. I am sure we are (and have been) losing valuable troves of early digital information, both through issues of hardware compatibility and corporate governance. Hardware, in that the only reason I still have a CD drive at all is because I haven't replaced one old computer. Hard to read data on a CD without a CD drive. Corporate governance, in that it seems every few months there is yet another frantic scramble by the community to back up an aging web service that has been deemed too expensive to maintain by its owner. I expect there is a huge amount of information in this part of the digital age that in 50 years time will be gone simply because we are not actively preserving it due to a belief that it will always be there.

WalterBright 6y ago
On the other hand, the unpublished archive of Kennedy photos was stored in the basement of one of the World Trade Centers. And there was that HP archive that burned down. And the storage center for military records burned down. Etc.
- caf 6y ago
  Also the 2008 Universal Studios fire.
namibj 6y ago
The problem with these analog formats is inherent generation loss, and the inability to make use of error correction codes. While yes, that is true, there is an argument about formats as wide-spread as CD-R, DVD-R, and BD-R/BD-R-DL. Readers for these are made by many companies, and information on how to make them is wide spread. They're also just sufficiently-precise mechanics with rather trivial optics. Does your CD drive also read DVDs? I'd guess so. Archive team is (thankfully) doing a good job. Go support them, and the Internet Archive! I do not hold that belief you worry about. I'd like to collaborate on that front, not actually targeting immediate accessibility like the internet archive, but rather comparably to what that mine does. Well, maybe with less focus on active, short-term retrieval, and more on just waiting until it's feasible to keep it on active HDDs.
- Piskvorrr 6y ago
  There's an orthogonal problem: does your DVD drive read CDs? I mean, sure it does, on the abstract level of compatibility; but the _material_ of the physical data carriers degrades. Audio CDs from the 1990s are still listenable (as there's far more error correction going on in the ear of the beholder), but data CDs? Not good, and getting worse. And that's not to mention magnetic tapes, where the charge fades even faster...
  - namibj 6y ago
    BaFe tapes don't seem to have issues with "data fading". And BD-R uses phase-change recording, which is very, very stable and not affected by fungi or other ways the dye tends to rot/degrade in CD-R/DVD-R. Modern, high-coercitivity magnetic data tape only really has issues with hydrolysis of the binder that holds the magnetic particles to the PET film. This is prevented by very, very dry storage under about 15 degree Celsius. See e.g. this chart: https://i0.wp.com/clir.wordpress.clir.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2017/02/figure_10.gif https://i0.wp.com/clir.wordpress.clir.org/wp-content/uploads... Further reading: https://www.clir.org/pubs/reports/pub54/estimation_of_les/ https://www.clir.org/pubs/reports/pub54/estimation_of_les/

by ruytlm 6y ago

WalterBright 6y ago

On the other hand, the unpublished archive of Kennedy photos was stored in the basement of one of the World Trade Centers. And there was that HP archive that burned down. And the storage center for military records burned down. Etc.

caf 6y ago
Also the 2008 Universal Studios fire.

namibj 6y ago

The problem with these analog formats is inherent generation loss, and the inability to make use of error correction codes. While yes, that is true, there is an argument about formats as wide-spread as CD-R, DVD-R, and BD-R/BD-R-DL. Readers for these are made by many companies, and information on how to make them is wide spread. They're also just sufficiently-precise mechanics with rather trivial optics. Does your CD drive also read DVDs? I'd guess so. Archive team is (thankfully) doing a good job. Go support them, and the Internet Archive! I do not hold that belief you worry about. I'd like to collaborate on that front, not actually targeting immediate accessibility like the internet archive, but rather comparably to what that mine does. Well, maybe with less focus on active, short-term retrieval, and more on just waiting until it's feasible to keep it on active HDDs.

Piskvorrr 6y ago
There's an orthogonal problem: does your DVD drive read CDs? I mean, sure it does, on the abstract level of compatibility; but the _material_ of the physical data carriers degrades. Audio CDs from the 1990s are still listenable (as there's far more error correction going on in the ear of the beholder), but data CDs? Not good, and getting worse. And that's not to mention magnetic tapes, where the charge fades even faster...
- namibj 6y ago
  BaFe tapes don't seem to have issues with "data fading". And BD-R uses phase-change recording, which is very, very stable and not affected by fungi or other ways the dye tends to rot/degrade in CD-R/DVD-R. Modern, high-coercitivity magnetic data tape only really has issues with hydrolysis of the binder that holds the magnetic particles to the PET film. This is prevented by very, very dry storage under about 15 degree Celsius. See e.g. this chart: https://i0.wp.com/clir.wordpress.clir.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2017/02/figure_10.gif https://i0.wp.com/clir.wordpress.clir.org/wp-content/uploads... Further reading: https://www.clir.org/pubs/reports/pub54/estimation_of_les/ https://www.clir.org/pubs/reports/pub54/estimation_of_les/