7 ms·

Rust/WinRT Brings Microsoft Closer to Adopting Rust Internally

106 points by yannikyeo 6y ago

m0zg 6y ago
Does Microsoft even use WinRT "internally"? Back in the day, e.g. Office would simply ignore all DevDiv and WinDiv bullshit and roll its own frameworks and even _custom controls_ libraries.
- vbezhenar 6y ago
  https://github.com/microsoft/calculator https://github.com/microsoft/calculator :) Not sure if that's RT though. There are so many Windows frameworks.
  - duaoebg 6y ago
    Checking out the bugs, it’s hilarious. You’d think it’s simple enough to get right. Crash on copying value, a bug waiting on triage for three months. Not exactly an endorsement
    - haolez 6y ago
      That stacktrace... https://github.com/microsoft/calculator/issues/1063#issuecomment-594178010 https://github.com/microsoft/calculator/issues/1063#issuecom...
  - contextfree 6y ago
    WinRT isn't really a framework, but more like a "shape" of API/ABI, like C calling conventions or COM. Most Windows APIs added in the last ten years or so have been WinRT based.
- contextfree 6y ago
  Office absolutely makes use of all sorts of Windows APIs including flat C APIs, COM APIs and WinRT APIs. The Office Win32 apps recently moved over to using the WinRT Windows.UI.Composition APIs for their composition layer, for example.
- barrkel 6y ago
  If you're racing to hit a deadline, you don't want dependencies on other teams. So if the designers have drawn up the UI for the next major refresh, Office doesn't need to wait for the shell team to have implemented the controls, or for development to have them wrapped up in MFC. If the dependencies already exist, you're on safer ground. Though team culture may choose otherwise; I understood Excel didn't like having any external dependencies.
  - chipperyman573 6y ago
    Did excel not even use any math libraries? Seems kind of silly to re-create that wheel, espically when we've proven that many of our algorithms are mathematically impossible to improve, and excel is so heavily focused on math work.
    - yodon 6y ago
      You might enjoy this [0] post on a bit of the history of Excel math libraries [0] https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/06/16/my-first-billg-review/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/06/16/my-first-billg-rev...
      - chipperyman573 6y ago
        I did enjoy that! Thanks for sharing, it was really interesting.
  - m0zg 6y ago
    Better roll their own OS then. And then their own hardware and semiconductors as well.
    - karmakaze 6y ago
      Seems to be working for Apple.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Yes, React Native for Windows uses WinUI, and Office is their biggest customer. Also many WinUI components have come from Office's experience adopting UWP APIs.
FpUser 6y ago
So they're giving another candy, this time to developers who like/want to use Rust. Not bad for them. My personal view/situation is a bit different. I think this is nothing more but yet another attempt by Microsoft to woo customers into a set of technologies/runtimes/APIs that are way more constrained that good ole Win32. On windows desktop GUI front I was using Delphi since 90s and barring few easily fixable hick ups what did work then works as a charm even now. So instead of wasting my time on their infinite ever changing set of front end tech I stayed on a proven path and that saved me a ton of money. And my desktop development is still the same with extra niceties as added multi platform ability and free and open source Delphi's alternative Lazarus/FreePascal combo.
- alkonaut 6y ago
  Rust with win32 has worked for years.
  - FpUser 6y ago
    Did I say it does not? I think you've completely missed my point. By the number of downvotes it seems you are not alone. So maybe I was not clear enough.
    - alkonaut 6y ago
      Perhaps my answer didn't even suggest you did :) I don't even know any more.
- rvz 6y ago
  Well Microsoft has learned their lesson this time when they missed out on the smartphone industry and they are coming after winning back developers; and it seems to be working, especially when you give them "free stuff". Now that they have Github, NPM, Azure, WSL2 and WinUI its no surprise why they would want to allow other languages such as Rust to be easily used on Windows. Better support for Rust means more developers will hop on supporting Windows.
- smt88 6y ago
0x0 6y ago
Imagine a world wide web where Microsoft buys Mozilla because of a programming language they happened to develop.
- ChrisSD 6y ago
  Mozilla doesn't develop Rust. Mozilla developers are involved in Rust's development but that's not quite the same thing. Microsoft buying Mozilla would only buy developer time, not Rust itself (and then only if the developers don't jump ship).
- VWWHFSfQ 6y ago
  I think Canonical will be the next major "earth-shattering" acquisition that Microsoft makes. Ubuntu is so widely deployed as the defacto Linux OS everywhere from Linux CI images, AWS instances. Azure. After IBM bought Red Hat it seems like there's a run on owning the Linux "ecosystem", even if you can't own the code. Microsoft is demonstrating that they want to own the new world of development/deployment ecosystem end-to-end. Github, VS Code, NPM. Next will be the operating system that everyone runs their stuff on. Doesn't WSL already default to Ubuntu anyway? Edit: also isn't Shutteworth still funding Canonical out of his pocket? The last I checked it wasn't nearly profitable.
  - bhouston 6y ago
    What a brilliant move for Ms to acquire canonical and then fund the crap out of it
  - empath75 6y ago
    I think that would get a pretty close look from the justice department.
    - ashtonkem 6y ago
      Would it? I don’t believe that Canonical is anywhere close to dominating the Linux space, and MS is continuing its slow slide from total market dominance. Under what theory would the justice department interfere?
dang 6y ago
See also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23033451 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23033451 from a couple weeks ago.
StillBored 6y ago
I might have to see if the winrt bindings are better than the generic rust ecosystem. I think the idea of rust is a good one, but the language isn't really something I would ever recommend for a professional project at this point. I can get around the fact that using rust sometimes feels like programming with one arm tied behind my back. The real problem is the ecosystem. I've hardly used rust enough to feel like I've got a really broad feel for the ecosystem, but the feeling I have at the moment is that its quite possible to hit deal breaker levels of problems when attempting to combine differing libraries into the same application. Particularity when one is using threads in an application. I needed to pass one libraries reference into a thread, where another library needed to have the instance used in a closure. It turned out to be impossible without either using unsafe code or adding additional traits to both libraries. A trick made much harder because I then had to wrangle cargo to pick up internally maintained versions of libraries instead of the main cargo repos. So, I get the distinct feeling that rust is great if you can stick to a single threaded programs, or you don't rely on 3rd party libraries. Mix the two, and your in deep trouble.
pjmlp 6y ago
BUILD 2020 is taking place this week, there are a 4 Rust related talks: - Expert Q&A: C#/C++/Rust WinRT Team - The 30 Min Beginner Rust Coding Challenge - Intro to Rust - Microsoft's Safe Systems Programming Languages Effort More info at: https://mybuild.microsoft.com/sessions?t=%257B%2522from%2522%253A%25222020-05-19T00%253A00%253A00%252B02%253A00%2522%252C%2522to%2522%253A%25222020-05-21T23%253A59%253A00%252B02%253A00%2522%257D&q=rust&s=%257B%2522name%2522%253A%2522translate.refine.label.sort.relevance%2522%252C%2522type%2522%253A0%257D https://mybuild.microsoft.com/sessions?t=%257B%2522from%2522...

106 points by yannikyeo 6y ago

m0zg 6y ago

Does Microsoft even use WinRT "internally"? Back in the day, e.g. Office would simply ignore all DevDiv and WinDiv bullshit and roll its own frameworks and even _custom controls_ libraries.

vbezhenar 6y ago
https://github.com/microsoft/calculator https://github.com/microsoft/calculator :) Not sure if that's RT though. There are so many Windows frameworks.
- duaoebg 6y ago
  Checking out the bugs, it’s hilarious. You’d think it’s simple enough to get right. Crash on copying value, a bug waiting on triage for three months. Not exactly an endorsement
  - haolez 6y ago
    That stacktrace... https://github.com/microsoft/calculator/issues/1063#issuecomment-594178010 https://github.com/microsoft/calculator/issues/1063#issuecom...
- contextfree 6y ago
  WinRT isn't really a framework, but more like a "shape" of API/ABI, like C calling conventions or COM. Most Windows APIs added in the last ten years or so have been WinRT based.
contextfree 6y ago
Office absolutely makes use of all sorts of Windows APIs including flat C APIs, COM APIs and WinRT APIs. The Office Win32 apps recently moved over to using the WinRT Windows.UI.Composition APIs for their composition layer, for example.
barrkel 6y ago
If you're racing to hit a deadline, you don't want dependencies on other teams. So if the designers have drawn up the UI for the next major refresh, Office doesn't need to wait for the shell team to have implemented the controls, or for development to have them wrapped up in MFC. If the dependencies already exist, you're on safer ground. Though team culture may choose otherwise; I understood Excel didn't like having any external dependencies.
- chipperyman573 6y ago
  Did excel not even use any math libraries? Seems kind of silly to re-create that wheel, espically when we've proven that many of our algorithms are mathematically impossible to improve, and excel is so heavily focused on math work.
  - yodon 6y ago
    You might enjoy this [0] post on a bit of the history of Excel math libraries [0] https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/06/16/my-first-billg-review/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/06/16/my-first-billg-rev...
    - chipperyman573 6y ago
      I did enjoy that! Thanks for sharing, it was really interesting.
- m0zg 6y ago
  Better roll their own OS then. And then their own hardware and semiconductors as well.
  - karmakaze 6y ago
    Seems to be working for Apple.
pjmlp 6y ago
Yes, React Native for Windows uses WinUI, and Office is their biggest customer. Also many WinUI components have come from Office's experience adopting UWP APIs.

FpUser 6y ago

So they're giving another candy, this time to developers who like/want to use Rust. Not bad for them. My personal view/situation is a bit different. I think this is nothing more but yet another attempt by Microsoft to woo customers into a set of technologies/runtimes/APIs that are way more constrained that good ole Win32. On windows desktop GUI front I was using Delphi since 90s and barring few easily fixable hick ups what did work then works as a charm even now. So instead of wasting my time on their infinite ever changing set of front end tech I stayed on a proven path and that saved me a ton of money. And my desktop development is still the same with extra niceties as added multi platform ability and free and open source Delphi's alternative Lazarus/FreePascal combo.

alkonaut 6y ago
Rust with win32 has worked for years.
- FpUser 6y ago
  Did I say it does not? I think you've completely missed my point. By the number of downvotes it seems you are not alone. So maybe I was not clear enough.
  - alkonaut 6y ago
    Perhaps my answer didn't even suggest you did :) I don't even know any more.
rvz 6y ago
Well Microsoft has learned their lesson this time when they missed out on the smartphone industry and they are coming after winning back developers; and it seems to be working, especially when you give them "free stuff". Now that they have Github, NPM, Azure, WSL2 and WinUI its no surprise why they would want to allow other languages such as Rust to be easily used on Windows. Better support for Rust means more developers will hop on supporting Windows.
smt88 6y ago

0x0 6y ago

Imagine a world wide web where Microsoft buys Mozilla because of a programming language they happened to develop.

ChrisSD 6y ago
Mozilla doesn't develop Rust. Mozilla developers are involved in Rust's development but that's not quite the same thing. Microsoft buying Mozilla would only buy developer time, not Rust itself (and then only if the developers don't jump ship).
VWWHFSfQ 6y ago
I think Canonical will be the next major "earth-shattering" acquisition that Microsoft makes. Ubuntu is so widely deployed as the defacto Linux OS everywhere from Linux CI images, AWS instances. Azure. After IBM bought Red Hat it seems like there's a run on owning the Linux "ecosystem", even if you can't own the code. Microsoft is demonstrating that they want to own the new world of development/deployment ecosystem end-to-end. Github, VS Code, NPM. Next will be the operating system that everyone runs their stuff on. Doesn't WSL already default to Ubuntu anyway? Edit: also isn't Shutteworth still funding Canonical out of his pocket? The last I checked it wasn't nearly profitable.
- bhouston 6y ago
  What a brilliant move for Ms to acquire canonical and then fund the crap out of it
- empath75 6y ago
  I think that would get a pretty close look from the justice department.
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    Would it? I don’t believe that Canonical is anywhere close to dominating the Linux space, and MS is continuing its slow slide from total market dominance. Under what theory would the justice department interfere?

dang 6y ago

See also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23033451 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23033451 from a couple weeks ago.

StillBored 6y ago

I might have to see if the winrt bindings are better than the generic rust ecosystem. I think the idea of rust is a good one, but the language isn't really something I would ever recommend for a professional project at this point. I can get around the fact that using rust sometimes feels like programming with one arm tied behind my back. The real problem is the ecosystem. I've hardly used rust enough to feel like I've got a really broad feel for the ecosystem, but the feeling I have at the moment is that its quite possible to hit deal breaker levels of problems when attempting to combine differing libraries into the same application. Particularity when one is using threads in an application. I needed to pass one libraries reference into a thread, where another library needed to have the instance used in a closure. It turned out to be impossible without either using unsafe code or adding additional traits to both libraries. A trick made much harder because I then had to wrangle cargo to pick up internally maintained versions of libraries instead of the main cargo repos. So, I get the distinct feeling that rust is great if you can stick to a single threaded programs, or you don't rely on 3rd party libraries. Mix the two, and your in deep trouble.

pjmlp 6y ago

BUILD 2020 is taking place this week, there are a 4 Rust related talks: - Expert Q&A: C#/C++/Rust WinRT Team - The 30 Min Beginner Rust Coding Challenge - Intro to Rust - Microsoft's Safe Systems Programming Languages Effort More info at: https://mybuild.microsoft.com/sessions?t=%257B%2522from%2522%253A%25222020-05-19T00%253A00%253A00%252B02%253A00%2522%252C%2522to%2522%253A%25222020-05-21T23%253A59%253A00%252B02%253A00%2522%257D&q=rust&s=%257B%2522name%2522%253A%2522translate.refine.label.sort.relevance%2522%252C%2522type%2522%253A0%257D https://mybuild.microsoft.com/sessions?t=%257B%2522from%2522...