6 ms·

How about making the id voluntary to get, but required to get benefits. Want to get the guvmint out of your life? Sure, then don't ask for unemployment benefits

by sershe 6y ago

How about making the id voluntary to get, but required to get benefits. Want to get the guvmint out of your life? Sure, then don't ask for unemployment benefits.

Teknoman117 6y ago
As an American: see the classic "Get your government hands off my Medicare" line. I don't know how many of us actually paid attention in Civics or bothered actually trying to understand how our government is supposed to work.
tptacek 6y ago
"Voluntary to get, required for some benefits" is another way to say "involuntary". What is citizenship but a collection of benefits?
- ryanwaggoner 6y ago
  How is that different from requiring vaccines for public school, a license to drive a car or fly a plane, or even a safety course and hunting license to hunt? Most of the things that are benefits of citizenship that don’t require any voluntary steps are true “public goods”, like national defense or the societal benefits of education, etc.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - reaperducer 6y ago
    It seems more like the whole "Raise your drinking age to 21, or the federal government will withhold road improvement money from your state." It's coercion.
- arcticfox 6y ago
  > "Voluntary to get, required for some benefits" is another way to say "involuntary". What is citizenship but a collection of benefits? This is pretty clearly a poor extrapolation. For example, Global Entry. Is signing up for Global Entry involuntary? It is voluntary to get, required for some benefits.
  - jrockway 6y ago
    You're not getting any intrinsic benefits. If you are a US citizen, you are allowed to return to the US after international travel. Global Entry doesn't change any of that. On average, it does make returning easier, which is nice... but the machines could be out of order, or you could be flagged for questioning in the usual manner, etc.
    - akerl_ 6y ago
      If “making something easier” doesn’t count as a “benefit”, I think that maybe there’s a fundamental disagreement about what it means for something to be beneficial. Global Entry is pretty clearly beneficial for the user, as part of the border control experience. Whether having things like Global Entry is beneficial to society is, as `tptacek points on parallel to your comment, a very different question.
  - tptacek 6y ago
    Global Entry is deeply problematic for exactly this reason, and all it does is speed you through a line at an airport!
- wongarsu 6y ago
  The main purpose of government is providing infrastructure like roads and bridges, as well as enforcement of property rights and security through police and courts, as well as through healthcare and armed forces. You get all of that without this hyothetical ID. Unemployment benefits is somewhere much further down the list. It could be argued to be a security measure both to keep the crime rate lower and to prevent an uprising from disenfranchised poor people, but it serves this purpose just fine even if a few people voluntarily opt out.
  - Spooky23 6y ago
    The US government exists to collect taxes, pay debts, prove for common defense and provide for the general welfare. Roads were historically a local and state priority, so be careful with your modern conservative principles, as they probably are not compatible with your lifestyle.
  - reaperducer 6y ago
    The main purpose of government is providing infrastructure like roads and bridges Roads and bridges being a government function is a somewhat recent notion that we've grown accustomed to. Historically in the United States, roads and bridges were privately owned, and users paid a toll to a private person or company to use them. This was one of the many disagreements between the states that led to the Civil War. There are plenty of private roads and bridges still in existence in the Untied States, mostly in the older states. One example: http://www.dcdbc.com http://www.dcdbc.com
    - vageli 6y ago
      > The main purpose of government is providing infrastructure like roads and bridges > Roads and bridges being a government function is a somewhat recent notion that we've grown accustomed to. > Historically in the United States, roads and bridges were privately owned, and users paid a toll to a private person or company to use them. This was one of the many disagreements between the states that led to the Civil War. > There are plenty of private roads and bridges still in existence in the Untied States, mostly in the older states. > One example: http://www.dcdbc.com http://www.dcdbc.com I've always wondered about the bridge at Dingman's Ferry. Reading through the website, I wonder how they could possibly enforce the penalty for overages in terms of tonnage. Since they are a private entity would law enforcement issue a citation or would the bridge corporation be forced to litigate?
- Tade0 6y ago
  Employment is also voluntary yet we are somehow okay with it being necessary to not become homeless and will often accept terms which are very biased towards the benefit of our employer.
Spooky23 6y ago
How about you get evicted and cannot get food stamps for your family, because your non-driver ID expired three months ago and you have a hard time getting a day off to take a bus downtown to DMV? That’s reality for millions of people.
- VWWHFSfQ 6y ago
  Go get your ID situation fixed. edit: To get an EBT card in NYC you can do it all online if you have a valid (ie, not expired, ID card.) If you do not have a valid (ie, expired, ID card), then you have to go to the DMV so they can take your picture and you sign a few forms. The forms are available in 22 languages. At the same time they may work to get you a new, valid, ID card. How is this unreasonable?
  - anigbrowl 6y ago
    How are the DMV opening hours/wait times? Now imagine that impact on a person with some minimum wage job. You have a valid point but the marginal cost of bureaucracy to a poor/disabled person is often a lot higher than to someone for whom life is going smoothly. Also, it's easier to fall off the smooth track than to get back on.
    - VWWHFSfQ 6y ago
      What is the alternative to get a valid ID card and an EBT card? I understand there's a hardship for someone that can't get away for a few hours to travel to the DMV office. But it's the same hardship for everyone. There are basic requirements: 1) You have to go to the DMV office 2) You have to agree to have your picture taken 3) You have to fill out 3 forms (offered in your native language -- 22 languages are offered) 4) You have to provide a mailing address for where the EBT card will be sent And then you have to be on the other end of that mailing address to receive and activate your EBT card. This all seems like very easy procedures to follow to get food stamps.
      - anigbrowl 6y ago
pathseeker 6y ago
There is a non-trivial portion of citizen minorities who cannot get IDs because they do not have birth certificates.
- vinay427 6y ago
  First of all, an ID doesn't need to have anything to do with citizenship. It can also be a claim of residence like a driver's license in the US. Second, if people are eligible for benefits, they are clearly being recorded in some fashion. If the benefit requires permanent residence in the US, I would presume most states are attempting to verify this as well. In either case, this can be used for either a residence ID or a stronger ID that proves citizenship or immigration status, the latter resembling the national ID cards that many EU countries (among other places) have.
  - VWWHFSfQ 6y ago
    USA is set to require a passport or state-issued Enhanced ID [0] for domestic airline travel this year. It's about as close to a "national ID card" as it can get. [0] https://www.dhs.gov/enhanced-drivers-licenses-what-are-they https://www.dhs.gov/enhanced-drivers-licenses-what-are-they
  - pathseeker 6y ago
    Here is your comment: >First of all, an ID doesn't need to have anything to do with citizenship Here is the comment further up that this comment is in the context of: >It amazes me that there is no authentication provided by governments in the US to citizens. Do you see why we are talking about citizenship now? Especially when much of the discussion is revolving around voting as well, which does require a certain citizenship status.
    - vinay427 6y ago
      The discussion was about unemployment benefits, which in most every case is not limited to US citizens. I believe that when the person who you quoted used the term "citizens," they meant it in a looser sense to refer to people eligible for unemployment benefits, which is what I responded to. Citizenship is also not sufficient proof to receive benefits, so I'm unclear why we're trying to add another confounding factor when states already have a (less than comprehensive) system for tracking residency that can be adapted.
12xo 6y ago
We have those. They're called Passports. But the rub is that some states and local municipalities will not accept a US Passport as ID. Which makes no sense what-so-ever.
oh_sigh 6y ago
> Sure, then don't ask for unemployment benefits. Does that mean they would get to not pay taxes that pay into unemployment funds too then?
intopieces 6y ago
This line of thinking sounds consistent but actually isn’t: even if you’re against the government interfering in your life, you’re still entitled to the benefits that you paid for. Your line would only be consistent if the individuals could opt out of paying. This is the source of the “coercion” claim that libertarians make.

by sershe 6y ago

How about making the id voluntary to get, but required to get benefits. Want to get the guvmint out of your life? Sure, then don't ask for unemployment benefits.

Teknoman117 6y ago

As an American: see the classic "Get your government hands off my Medicare" line. I don't know how many of us actually paid attention in Civics or bothered actually trying to understand how our government is supposed to work.

tptacek 6y ago

"Voluntary to get, required for some benefits" is another way to say "involuntary". What is citizenship but a collection of benefits?

ryanwaggoner 6y ago
How is that different from requiring vaccines for public school, a license to drive a car or fly a plane, or even a safety course and hunting license to hunt? Most of the things that are benefits of citizenship that don’t require any voluntary steps are true “public goods”, like national defense or the societal benefits of education, etc.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- reaperducer 6y ago
  It seems more like the whole "Raise your drinking age to 21, or the federal government will withhold road improvement money from your state." It's coercion.
arcticfox 6y ago
> "Voluntary to get, required for some benefits" is another way to say "involuntary". What is citizenship but a collection of benefits? This is pretty clearly a poor extrapolation. For example, Global Entry. Is signing up for Global Entry involuntary? It is voluntary to get, required for some benefits.
- jrockway 6y ago
  You're not getting any intrinsic benefits. If you are a US citizen, you are allowed to return to the US after international travel. Global Entry doesn't change any of that. On average, it does make returning easier, which is nice... but the machines could be out of order, or you could be flagged for questioning in the usual manner, etc.
  - akerl_ 6y ago
    If “making something easier” doesn’t count as a “benefit”, I think that maybe there’s a fundamental disagreement about what it means for something to be beneficial. Global Entry is pretty clearly beneficial for the user, as part of the border control experience. Whether having things like Global Entry is beneficial to society is, as `tptacek points on parallel to your comment, a very different question.
- tptacek 6y ago
  Global Entry is deeply problematic for exactly this reason, and all it does is speed you through a line at an airport!
wongarsu 6y ago
The main purpose of government is providing infrastructure like roads and bridges, as well as enforcement of property rights and security through police and courts, as well as through healthcare and armed forces. You get all of that without this hyothetical ID. Unemployment benefits is somewhere much further down the list. It could be argued to be a security measure both to keep the crime rate lower and to prevent an uprising from disenfranchised poor people, but it serves this purpose just fine even if a few people voluntarily opt out.
- Spooky23 6y ago
  The US government exists to collect taxes, pay debts, prove for common defense and provide for the general welfare. Roads were historically a local and state priority, so be careful with your modern conservative principles, as they probably are not compatible with your lifestyle.
- reaperducer 6y ago
  The main purpose of government is providing infrastructure like roads and bridges Roads and bridges being a government function is a somewhat recent notion that we've grown accustomed to. Historically in the United States, roads and bridges were privately owned, and users paid a toll to a private person or company to use them. This was one of the many disagreements between the states that led to the Civil War. There are plenty of private roads and bridges still in existence in the Untied States, mostly in the older states. One example: http://www.dcdbc.com http://www.dcdbc.com
  - vageli 6y ago
    > The main purpose of government is providing infrastructure like roads and bridges > Roads and bridges being a government function is a somewhat recent notion that we've grown accustomed to. > Historically in the United States, roads and bridges were privately owned, and users paid a toll to a private person or company to use them. This was one of the many disagreements between the states that led to the Civil War. > There are plenty of private roads and bridges still in existence in the Untied States, mostly in the older states. > One example: http://www.dcdbc.com http://www.dcdbc.com I've always wondered about the bridge at Dingman's Ferry. Reading through the website, I wonder how they could possibly enforce the penalty for overages in terms of tonnage. Since they are a private entity would law enforcement issue a citation or would the bridge corporation be forced to litigate?
Tade0 6y ago
Employment is also voluntary yet we are somehow okay with it being necessary to not become homeless and will often accept terms which are very biased towards the benefit of our employer.

Spooky23 6y ago

How about you get evicted and cannot get food stamps for your family, because your non-driver ID expired three months ago and you have a hard time getting a day off to take a bus downtown to DMV? That’s reality for millions of people.

VWWHFSfQ 6y ago
Go get your ID situation fixed. edit: To get an EBT card in NYC you can do it all online if you have a valid (ie, not expired, ID card.) If you do not have a valid (ie, expired, ID card), then you have to go to the DMV so they can take your picture and you sign a few forms. The forms are available in 22 languages. At the same time they may work to get you a new, valid, ID card. How is this unreasonable?
- anigbrowl 6y ago
  How are the DMV opening hours/wait times? Now imagine that impact on a person with some minimum wage job. You have a valid point but the marginal cost of bureaucracy to a poor/disabled person is often a lot higher than to someone for whom life is going smoothly. Also, it's easier to fall off the smooth track than to get back on.
  - VWWHFSfQ 6y ago
    What is the alternative to get a valid ID card and an EBT card? I understand there's a hardship for someone that can't get away for a few hours to travel to the DMV office. But it's the same hardship for everyone. There are basic requirements: 1) You have to go to the DMV office 2) You have to agree to have your picture taken 3) You have to fill out 3 forms (offered in your native language -- 22 languages are offered) 4) You have to provide a mailing address for where the EBT card will be sent And then you have to be on the other end of that mailing address to receive and activate your EBT card. This all seems like very easy procedures to follow to get food stamps.
    - anigbrowl 6y ago

pathseeker 6y ago

There is a non-trivial portion of citizen minorities who cannot get IDs because they do not have birth certificates.

vinay427 6y ago
First of all, an ID doesn't need to have anything to do with citizenship. It can also be a claim of residence like a driver's license in the US. Second, if people are eligible for benefits, they are clearly being recorded in some fashion. If the benefit requires permanent residence in the US, I would presume most states are attempting to verify this as well. In either case, this can be used for either a residence ID or a stronger ID that proves citizenship or immigration status, the latter resembling the national ID cards that many EU countries (among other places) have.
- VWWHFSfQ 6y ago
  USA is set to require a passport or state-issued Enhanced ID [0] for domestic airline travel this year. It's about as close to a "national ID card" as it can get. [0] https://www.dhs.gov/enhanced-drivers-licenses-what-are-they https://www.dhs.gov/enhanced-drivers-licenses-what-are-they
- pathseeker 6y ago
  Here is your comment: >First of all, an ID doesn't need to have anything to do with citizenship Here is the comment further up that this comment is in the context of: >It amazes me that there is no authentication provided by governments in the US to citizens. Do you see why we are talking about citizenship now? Especially when much of the discussion is revolving around voting as well, which does require a certain citizenship status.
  - vinay427 6y ago
    The discussion was about unemployment benefits, which in most every case is not limited to US citizens. I believe that when the person who you quoted used the term "citizens," they meant it in a looser sense to refer to people eligible for unemployment benefits, which is what I responded to. Citizenship is also not sufficient proof to receive benefits, so I'm unclear why we're trying to add another confounding factor when states already have a (less than comprehensive) system for tracking residency that can be adapted.

12xo 6y ago

We have those. They're called Passports. But the rub is that some states and local municipalities will not accept a US Passport as ID. Which makes no sense what-so-ever.

oh_sigh 6y ago

> Sure, then don't ask for unemployment benefits. Does that mean they would get to not pay taxes that pay into unemployment funds too then?

intopieces 6y ago

This line of thinking sounds consistent but actually isn’t: even if you’re against the government interfering in your life, you’re still entitled to the benefits that you paid for. Your line would only be consistent if the individuals could opt out of paying. This is the source of the “coercion” claim that libertarians make.