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I've been trawling subreddits to get a ground-level view of common narratives that we hold on to but have never thought to collect data on. For instance, there

by wenc 6y ago

I've been trawling subreddits to get a ground-level view of common narratives that we hold on to but have never thought to collect data on. For instance, there's a common and oft-repeated notion that food delivery apps are screwing over drivers, not just restaurants. So I've been reading the Couriersofreddit sub to get the story from the horses' mouths: https://www.reddit.com/r/couriersofreddit/ https://www.reddit.com/r/couriersofreddit/ It turns you can make quite a bit driving for GH/UE (well in some geographies), so much so that a $15/hr job with benefits is unattractive. https://www.reddit.com/r/couriersofreddit/comments/gkmuc4/would_you_take_amazon_driver_for_15hour_plus/ https://www.reddit.com/r/couriersofreddit/comments/gkmuc4/wo... I want to work towards a just world, but I believe the first step is to really understand the system of incentives and what is actually happening on the ground, as opposed to simply taking in oversimplified media narratives. Subreddits are watering holes for folks in the field. I think their unvarnished perspectives are interesting data points (albeit skewed towards a Reddit-centric demographic).

temporama1 6y ago
This is the most hacker-news comment ever.
- deleted 6y ago
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- throwaway-alpha 6y ago
  No, this one is: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&threadid=3901318&perpage=40&pagenumber=27#post504912105 https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&th...
jfk13 6y ago
I wonder about people who say things like "I average between $35-40 an hour" doing food-delivery gigs. How many hours per day is that level of work available?
- antonf 6y ago
  I was delivering food via DoorDash before COVID-19 (using $5k 300cc motorcycle, so my gas expenses and depreciation were low), and it wasn't hard to hit $40/h during lunch or dinner delivering food in San Mateo, CA. Sometimes, when restaurants were slow I made about $20/h (I stopped taking orders from Mendocino Farms and Sweet Basil for that reason). I also tried to deliver food in Palo Alto, but most of the orders were coming from Stanford Shopping Center were it was hard to find parking, and then it was hard to find the restaurant, and on top of that the restaurants were pretty slow to prepare the orders. The factors that may contribute to higher income through delivery apps during COVID-19: - without regular visitors, restaurants are probably faster to prepare food for delivery - with more customers there are more chances for delivery app to batch orders - with less traffic and cheaper gas, the expenses per delivery are lower
dyslexit 6y ago
I'm very weary of resistor self-reported "data points". They don't often reflect real life for most people, or worse, don't even reflect really even for the commentor. I seriously doubt the person saying he makes $35-$40 an hour doing uber eats is any sort of real average even for him. On top of that a thread like that is more motivating to respond to for people who want to give a "fuck you" to Amazon or who want to brag about their profits than it is for the average driver.
- wenc 6y ago
  I'm with you about not drawing firm conclusions from potentially biased anecdata from that one post. Also we don't know if that number is gross or net. That said, I have been reading this sub daily for the past 2 months now and yes there's variability but in general, most agree the work is paying (check out the sub's history in the last 2 months). It sounds like customers are tipping better, traffic is reduced so trips are shorter, gas is cheaper, parking is more abundant, and order volumes are up. These conditions are temporary and are not sustainable in the long term of course, but it's worth seeing the situation for what it is right now. It sounds like it is possible to do well in these times. The sub is a window into what folks (admittedly a biased sample) are actually experiencing, as opposed to theoretical conjecture based on our (sometimes disconnected to reality or outdated) priors, etc. In my line of work, I often overhear stuff from field service people, and it's always fascinating to me how different reality is from what say, software engineers are thinking. The discrepancy between "systems as found" and "systems as imagined" is interesting to me is all. That's just one subreddit. There are other watering holes.
  - mycall 6y ago
    Software engineers should know what they are trying to achieve but don't pigeonhole their common sense. Having many channels of input, not to mention interviews and sometimes interrogations in subreddits, creates more signal from the noise and order from the chaos.
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wavepruner 6y ago
I can verify that driving for Uber can be very profitable if you find the right niche and only work during busy hours. My city has a huge restaurant & bar scene and when you hit the right times $20-30 profit is not very difficult. That's after maintenance, fuel, and depreciation costs. You can make even more if you are an entertaining driver and tell great stories (tips!!). Restaurant delivery driving is a less than minimum wage endeavor in my city the last time I tried it. A lot of that has to do with growing pains: the restaurants don't have the order ready in time, and you usually have to drive across the city to do a pickup because volume is low. Regular Uber was also like this in the early days until volume picked up. Of course, with COVID, both Uber and Uber Eats is barely worth doing. I hear grocery delivery is where it's at now.
screye 6y ago
> well in some geographies That's the thing about service based income. You can't institute any protections in place, because the answer to everything is 'it depends'. Instituting a minimum wage requirement for waiters shouldn't be stopped because some waiters make a whole lot more than minimum wage. Same applies to delivery services. The culture, frequency and bills of each locality vary massively.
mrfusion 6y ago
Really cool idea! Any more gems you can share? Maybe this is a good way to get ideas for a saas too?
- wenc 6y ago
  Not sure about SaaS ideas, but maybe hang out at water holes on topics you're interested in? There's usually a subreddit for even very esoteric interests. There's one called r/onebag where people discuss how to pack efficiently for travel -- I was interested in this pre-shutdown when I did a lot of business travel. Now, not so much.
Jommi 6y ago
It's the paradox that has been in popular debate since "Uber can't make profit" narrative got started 5 years ago. It's absolutely bonkers, and even smart people join in on this fallacy. A consumer complaining about Uber not paying their drivers well is usually the same one that's choosing their ride based on what's cheapest.
- abdullahkhalids 6y ago
  My problem with Uber is not the absolute amount that drivers get paid, but the percentage of my money that ends up in their pocket. While I think Uber provides a valuable service, it does not provide a service that is 25% or more of the ride. Uber also locks a lot of potential income in the form of bonuses (do X rides in 1 week), to force a lot of drivers to work ungodly hours in order to meet those targets.
  - Jommi 6y ago
    25% is just their standard, it can change alot. And it does not account for those bonuses you mention. I'm not sure why you you're saying bonuses are a bad thing? People get paid extra to fulfill metrics?
    - abdullahkhalids 6y ago
      So talking to drivers, this is my understanding. When Uber started in my country/city a few years ago, drivers could earn X/month if they drove for 8-9 hours a day. Moreover, it was a smooth gradient, so some weeks they could work less and their take home would only go down linearly. Over the years, the bonus system was implemented. Now, if they drive for 8-9 hours their take home is like half of X/2. Instead they have to drive 12 hours a day and do at least Y rides in the week, to be eligible for roughly a X/2 bonus so their total take home is X. So, I meet so many drivers who seem super stressed and tired. When asked they say, it is the end of the week for them and they need to complete another 3 rides for the bonus, but they have already been driving for 15 hours, and only have 2 hours to complete the remaining 3 rides. Its exploitation at its finest.
sfashset 6y ago
I'd love to hear about a few more of these "watering holes", if you're so inclined.

by wenc 6y ago

temporama1 6y ago

This is the most hacker-news comment ever.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
throwaway-alpha 6y ago
No, this one is: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&threadid=3901318&perpage=40&pagenumber=27#post504912105 https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&th...

jfk13 6y ago

I wonder about people who say things like "I average between $35-40 an hour" doing food-delivery gigs. How many hours per day is that level of work available?

antonf 6y ago
I was delivering food via DoorDash before COVID-19 (using $5k 300cc motorcycle, so my gas expenses and depreciation were low), and it wasn't hard to hit $40/h during lunch or dinner delivering food in San Mateo, CA. Sometimes, when restaurants were slow I made about $20/h (I stopped taking orders from Mendocino Farms and Sweet Basil for that reason). I also tried to deliver food in Palo Alto, but most of the orders were coming from Stanford Shopping Center were it was hard to find parking, and then it was hard to find the restaurant, and on top of that the restaurants were pretty slow to prepare the orders. The factors that may contribute to higher income through delivery apps during COVID-19: - without regular visitors, restaurants are probably faster to prepare food for delivery - with more customers there are more chances for delivery app to batch orders - with less traffic and cheaper gas, the expenses per delivery are lower

dyslexit 6y ago

I'm very weary of resistor self-reported "data points". They don't often reflect real life for most people, or worse, don't even reflect really even for the commentor. I seriously doubt the person saying he makes $35-$40 an hour doing uber eats is any sort of real average even for him. On top of that a thread like that is more motivating to respond to for people who want to give a "fuck you" to Amazon or who want to brag about their profits than it is for the average driver.

wenc 6y ago
I'm with you about not drawing firm conclusions from potentially biased anecdata from that one post. Also we don't know if that number is gross or net. That said, I have been reading this sub daily for the past 2 months now and yes there's variability but in general, most agree the work is paying (check out the sub's history in the last 2 months). It sounds like customers are tipping better, traffic is reduced so trips are shorter, gas is cheaper, parking is more abundant, and order volumes are up. These conditions are temporary and are not sustainable in the long term of course, but it's worth seeing the situation for what it is right now. It sounds like it is possible to do well in these times. The sub is a window into what folks (admittedly a biased sample) are actually experiencing, as opposed to theoretical conjecture based on our (sometimes disconnected to reality or outdated) priors, etc. In my line of work, I often overhear stuff from field service people, and it's always fascinating to me how different reality is from what say, software engineers are thinking. The discrepancy between "systems as found" and "systems as imagined" is interesting to me is all. That's just one subreddit. There are other watering holes.
- mycall 6y ago
  Software engineers should know what they are trying to achieve but don't pigeonhole their common sense. Having many channels of input, not to mention interviews and sometimes interrogations in subreddits, creates more signal from the noise and order from the chaos.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

wavepruner 6y ago

I can verify that driving for Uber can be very profitable if you find the right niche and only work during busy hours. My city has a huge restaurant & bar scene and when you hit the right times $20-30 profit is not very difficult. That's after maintenance, fuel, and depreciation costs. You can make even more if you are an entertaining driver and tell great stories (tips!!). Restaurant delivery driving is a less than minimum wage endeavor in my city the last time I tried it. A lot of that has to do with growing pains: the restaurants don't have the order ready in time, and you usually have to drive across the city to do a pickup because volume is low. Regular Uber was also like this in the early days until volume picked up. Of course, with COVID, both Uber and Uber Eats is barely worth doing. I hear grocery delivery is where it's at now.

screye 6y ago

> well in some geographies That's the thing about service based income. You can't institute any protections in place, because the answer to everything is 'it depends'. Instituting a minimum wage requirement for waiters shouldn't be stopped because some waiters make a whole lot more than minimum wage. Same applies to delivery services. The culture, frequency and bills of each locality vary massively.

mrfusion 6y ago

Really cool idea! Any more gems you can share? Maybe this is a good way to get ideas for a saas too?

wenc 6y ago
Not sure about SaaS ideas, but maybe hang out at water holes on topics you're interested in? There's usually a subreddit for even very esoteric interests. There's one called r/onebag where people discuss how to pack efficiently for travel -- I was interested in this pre-shutdown when I did a lot of business travel. Now, not so much.

Jommi 6y ago

It's the paradox that has been in popular debate since "Uber can't make profit" narrative got started 5 years ago. It's absolutely bonkers, and even smart people join in on this fallacy. A consumer complaining about Uber not paying their drivers well is usually the same one that's choosing their ride based on what's cheapest.

abdullahkhalids 6y ago
My problem with Uber is not the absolute amount that drivers get paid, but the percentage of my money that ends up in their pocket. While I think Uber provides a valuable service, it does not provide a service that is 25% or more of the ride. Uber also locks a lot of potential income in the form of bonuses (do X rides in 1 week), to force a lot of drivers to work ungodly hours in order to meet those targets.
- Jommi 6y ago
  25% is just their standard, it can change alot. And it does not account for those bonuses you mention. I'm not sure why you you're saying bonuses are a bad thing? People get paid extra to fulfill metrics?
  - abdullahkhalids 6y ago
    So talking to drivers, this is my understanding. When Uber started in my country/city a few years ago, drivers could earn X/month if they drove for 8-9 hours a day. Moreover, it was a smooth gradient, so some weeks they could work less and their take home would only go down linearly. Over the years, the bonus system was implemented. Now, if they drive for 8-9 hours their take home is like half of X/2. Instead they have to drive 12 hours a day and do at least Y rides in the week, to be eligible for roughly a X/2 bonus so their total take home is X. So, I meet so many drivers who seem super stressed and tired. When asked they say, it is the end of the week for them and they need to complete another 3 rides for the bonus, but they have already been driving for 15 hours, and only have 2 hours to complete the remaining 3 rides. Its exploitation at its finest.

sfashset 6y ago

I'd love to hear about a few more of these "watering holes", if you're so inclined.