8 ms·

The problem is that IDs aren’t free, therefore requiring one is the equivalent of a poll tax. Even if poll taxes didn’t have a racist history, it still seems wr

The problem is that IDs aren’t free, therefore requiring one is the equivalent of a poll tax. Even if poll taxes didn’t have a racist history, it still seems wrong to charge to vote. I don’t think people are generally opposed to IDs for voting if they are free (voters registration cards currently serve this purpose).

toomuchtodo 6y ago
What does it take to make IDs free?
- 12xo 6y ago
  You have to look at the most rural and poor communities in the nation to understand why it can be both expensive and difficult. Birth certificates for instance, are often not present or available, nor are the agencies that provide the necessary documents accessible. Many times they are hundreds of miles from the person in need and the costs, and necessary steps can be extreme to a person with very little funds or resources.
  - LudwigNagasena 6y ago
    Yet these people have SSN, driver's license, credit cards, benefit transfer ID
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- giovannibonetti 6y ago
  I guess we can't escape the cost to implement that, even if that cost is subsided by the government. However, once it is in place there should be enough saving from increased efficiency to compensate that cost.
- shadowgovt 6y ago
  To make them free enough that they don't impose a burden on people's right to vote, we'd probably need to collect an amount of identifying information in a central location rivaling anything attempted previously by the US government. Enough biometrics to recognize a person regardless of whether they have any paperwork, paired with a system to update those biometrics when people's situations change (If you identify people by fingerprint for example you can't deny their right to vote if they lose both arms).
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    You should check out how DHS/TSA can do boarding pass checks now. Swipe your drivers license, passport, or DoD CAC smart card, all can auth in under 10 seconds, no boarding pass required. The data sources already exist. I’d assume any digital credential system would accommodate biometric updates the same at my Global Entry interview went; you speak with a government rep in person when they take a digital representation of your biometrics. https://thepointsguy.com/guide/no-boarding-pass-airport-security/ https://thepointsguy.com/guide/no-boarding-pass-airport-secu... https://www.biometricupdate.com/202003/tsa-deploys-new-credential-authentication-tech-for-checkpoint-screening https://www.biometricupdate.com/202003/tsa-deploys-new-crede...
Godel_unicode 6y ago
How can you possibly know that a national ID wouldn't be free? Social Security numbers are.
- dave5104 6y ago
  And in the same vein, US Passports are not free. So how do you know national IDs would be free?
  - Godel_unicode 6y ago
    Never said that they would be. I'm arguing that we shouldn't poison the well with unfounded complaints about how a system which doesn't exist might or might not work. That example is also apples and oranges. Given that a passport is much more expensive to make, has a ton of infrastructure mandated by international agreements, treaties, and standards, and is decidedly optional for the majority of people and it makes total sense to me that it would not be free. None of that is true about SSNs, and none of it would necessarily need to be true about a national ID.
    - dave5104 6y ago
      SSNs are apples to oranges as well. I can't see a national ID not being a photo ID, so it'd be more akin to a driver's license--and those do cost money. And the cost will almost surely be higher than randomly generating a number.
      - Godel_unicode 6y ago
        The name for this logical fallacy is "strawman". We have an existing nationally issued identification card which is free and doesn't have a photo. That's an excellent reason to believe we could make a better one and have it be free as well. I get free photo IDs all the time when I visit cloud data centers and they print me off a photo+QR code badge for the time I'm there. Drivers licenses are expensive because they are made to be extremely durable. They're made that way because they are constantly needed, not because of the photo printed on them. There's absolutely no reason whatsoever why a national ID card would have to be like a drivers license and not like a social security card. In fact, if they were legally required to be free they would very likely be just a name and a QR code. Leave all the photos to the back end, it's 2020.
constantine42 6y ago
I don't follow you. I need an ID to get a voters registration card. You already need an ID to drive, vote, bank, work, rent.
- greedo 6y ago
  I'm not sure where you live, but my state doesn't require an ID to register. You can use: "a copy of a utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck, or other government document that is current and shows your name and residence address." to prove your residency.
- jcrawfordor 6y ago
  The term "Voter ID" is somewhat complicated as it can refer somewhat separately to two different eras and types of policy. Historically, many states, municipalities, and etc. had instituted legislation or policy requiring that voters provide some form of identification, better referred to as "evidence of identity" to avoid confusion with the concept of a state ID, in order to register to vote. This was intended to deter fraudulent identification, but requirements are very lax. For example, my state has a voter ID law as does my municipality, but these are part of a "first wave" and are extremely lax. ID is required only once. Nearly any document bearing name and address and, in many cases, a simple sworn statement signed before an election official are sufficient. Voters who register to vote with a county clerk or certified voter registration agent are not required to provide ID at all, as completing the form before an election official is considered a sworn oath. In general, the only case in which a voter is required to show ID is if they register by mail and decline to provide a DL number or last four digits of SSN on the form. In such a case, they may show any suitable document the first time they vote and the requirement will be removed for all future elections. Election officials are trained to err on the side of accepting identification documents. Things like school report cards or phone bills are often used by people with less access to government services due to poverty or rural residence. The definition of "address" is even quite lax, for individuals living in rural areas, written directions or a drawn map depicting their residence are acceptable. This is considered a "voter ID" law, but is fairly different in origin and burden on the voter than the modern sense of a "voter ID" law, which may be as strict as requiring a photo ID issued by the federal government or motor vehicle administrator at the polling place for all elections. Because requiring payment for such a document prior to voting would likely be considered an illegal poll tax, many jurisdictions with such laws have instituted something called a "voting-only identification card" or similar which can be obtained from the motor vehicle administrator with no fee. However, waiving the fee on applying for a motor vehicle administrator's 'state ID' is largely missing the point. The true burden that people with limited access to government services face is less the fee and more the difficulty of obtaining the evidence of citizenship required for these documents. For people who were born in an impoverished, rural, or otherwise challenging context may have significant difficulty and face significant expense in obtaining a birth certificate, or no such birth certificate may exist. Historically, alternate documents attesting to the context of birth (for example, issued by a Catholic diocese on baptism or by a sovereign indigenous nation as documentation of membership) have been accepted to handle these situations, but modern voter ID laws often exclude such alternate documents. Further, under federal policy evidence of birth is often not the only document, and other documents are required as well. The summary is that there is, for the last decade or so, a "second wave" of voter ID laws which are more stringent and difficult to satisfy than nearly any historical identification scheme. In some cases obtaining a state voting-only ID is even more difficult in terms of documentation than obtaining a US passport, even aside the relatively high fee and long processing time for a passport. This is what leads to these laws being widely interpreted as intended to reduce access to the polls rather than to address fraud. Further complicating matters, the Help America Vote Act of 2002 imposed federal-level voter ID requirements. However, the federal government is not able to "override" voting legislation put in place by the states, which are solely responsible for administering elections. The result is that in some states, such as this one, there are two simultaneous paths for voter registration: the "state form" and the "federal form." The federal form actually imposes stricter ID requirements than the state form. For reasons I am not entirely clear on, HAVA requirements are interpreted as applying to all by-mail registration, with the result that some voters have to choose between obtaining additional ID documents (such as an SSN) to register by mail, or traveling to a county seat or other location where voter registration agents are available, where they can register to vote without these documents. Fortunately, there has long been a good deal of effort in getting librarians and other "prominent members of the community" certified as voter registration agents to make this route more accessible - in addition to the political parties often having their volunteers certified so that they can conduct door-to-door campaigns and be available at community events, although of course they often do this in ways that leads to the resulting registration turnout being party-biased. In addition to adding more friction for individuals legally entitled to vote to exercise that right, the situation is frankly just confusing, which creates a big window for disinformation that even discourages people from registering when they would have an easy time doing so. Just adding slight confusion to the whole matter is the fact that, due to a long-running aversion to citizen ID programs, the responsibility of tracking and identifying citizens has been de facto imposed upon the social security administration and motor vehicle administrators (DMV, MVD, etc). This creates a lot of confusion among especially people with limited government access - is it possible to vote without having an SSN? without being able to drive?
Camillo 6y ago
It doesn't stop there, though. To vote you need to be alive, and to stay alive you need food and drink, neither of which is free. You need some means of getting to the polling place, which also costs money. Even if you walk, you need shoes, which aren't free. In fact, if you don't want to be stopped by the jackbooted goons of the state while you're on the street, you better be wearing clothing, which you also need to pay for. Really, the entire economy is a poll tax meant to keep the poor voter down.

toomuchtodo 6y ago

What does it take to make IDs free?

12xo 6y ago
You have to look at the most rural and poor communities in the nation to understand why it can be both expensive and difficult. Birth certificates for instance, are often not present or available, nor are the agencies that provide the necessary documents accessible. Many times they are hundreds of miles from the person in need and the costs, and necessary steps can be extreme to a person with very little funds or resources.
- LudwigNagasena 6y ago
  Yet these people have SSN, driver's license, credit cards, benefit transfer ID
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
giovannibonetti 6y ago
I guess we can't escape the cost to implement that, even if that cost is subsided by the government. However, once it is in place there should be enough saving from increased efficiency to compensate that cost.
shadowgovt 6y ago
To make them free enough that they don't impose a burden on people's right to vote, we'd probably need to collect an amount of identifying information in a central location rivaling anything attempted previously by the US government. Enough biometrics to recognize a person regardless of whether they have any paperwork, paired with a system to update those biometrics when people's situations change (If you identify people by fingerprint for example you can't deny their right to vote if they lose both arms).
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  You should check out how DHS/TSA can do boarding pass checks now. Swipe your drivers license, passport, or DoD CAC smart card, all can auth in under 10 seconds, no boarding pass required. The data sources already exist. I’d assume any digital credential system would accommodate biometric updates the same at my Global Entry interview went; you speak with a government rep in person when they take a digital representation of your biometrics. https://thepointsguy.com/guide/no-boarding-pass-airport-security/ https://thepointsguy.com/guide/no-boarding-pass-airport-secu... https://www.biometricupdate.com/202003/tsa-deploys-new-credential-authentication-tech-for-checkpoint-screening https://www.biometricupdate.com/202003/tsa-deploys-new-crede...

Godel_unicode 6y ago

How can you possibly know that a national ID wouldn't be free? Social Security numbers are.

dave5104 6y ago
And in the same vein, US Passports are not free. So how do you know national IDs would be free?
- Godel_unicode 6y ago
  Never said that they would be. I'm arguing that we shouldn't poison the well with unfounded complaints about how a system which doesn't exist might or might not work. That example is also apples and oranges. Given that a passport is much more expensive to make, has a ton of infrastructure mandated by international agreements, treaties, and standards, and is decidedly optional for the majority of people and it makes total sense to me that it would not be free. None of that is true about SSNs, and none of it would necessarily need to be true about a national ID.
  - dave5104 6y ago
    SSNs are apples to oranges as well. I can't see a national ID not being a photo ID, so it'd be more akin to a driver's license--and those do cost money. And the cost will almost surely be higher than randomly generating a number.
    - Godel_unicode 6y ago
      The name for this logical fallacy is "strawman". We have an existing nationally issued identification card which is free and doesn't have a photo. That's an excellent reason to believe we could make a better one and have it be free as well. I get free photo IDs all the time when I visit cloud data centers and they print me off a photo+QR code badge for the time I'm there. Drivers licenses are expensive because they are made to be extremely durable. They're made that way because they are constantly needed, not because of the photo printed on them. There's absolutely no reason whatsoever why a national ID card would have to be like a drivers license and not like a social security card. In fact, if they were legally required to be free they would very likely be just a name and a QR code. Leave all the photos to the back end, it's 2020.

constantine42 6y ago

I don't follow you. I need an ID to get a voters registration card. You already need an ID to drive, vote, bank, work, rent.

greedo 6y ago
I'm not sure where you live, but my state doesn't require an ID to register. You can use: "a copy of a utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck, or other government document that is current and shows your name and residence address." to prove your residency.
jcrawfordor 6y ago
The term "Voter ID" is somewhat complicated as it can refer somewhat separately to two different eras and types of policy. Historically, many states, municipalities, and etc. had instituted legislation or policy requiring that voters provide some form of identification, better referred to as "evidence of identity" to avoid confusion with the concept of a state ID, in order to register to vote. This was intended to deter fraudulent identification, but requirements are very lax. For example, my state has a voter ID law as does my municipality, but these are part of a "first wave" and are extremely lax. ID is required only once. Nearly any document bearing name and address and, in many cases, a simple sworn statement signed before an election official are sufficient. Voters who register to vote with a county clerk or certified voter registration agent are not required to provide ID at all, as completing the form before an election official is considered a sworn oath. In general, the only case in which a voter is required to show ID is if they register by mail and decline to provide a DL number or last four digits of SSN on the form. In such a case, they may show any suitable document the first time they vote and the requirement will be removed for all future elections. Election officials are trained to err on the side of accepting identification documents. Things like school report cards or phone bills are often used by people with less access to government services due to poverty or rural residence. The definition of "address" is even quite lax, for individuals living in rural areas, written directions or a drawn map depicting their residence are acceptable. This is considered a "voter ID" law, but is fairly different in origin and burden on the voter than the modern sense of a "voter ID" law, which may be as strict as requiring a photo ID issued by the federal government or motor vehicle administrator at the polling place for all elections. Because requiring payment for such a document prior to voting would likely be considered an illegal poll tax, many jurisdictions with such laws have instituted something called a "voting-only identification card" or similar which can be obtained from the motor vehicle administrator with no fee. However, waiving the fee on applying for a motor vehicle administrator's 'state ID' is largely missing the point. The true burden that people with limited access to government services face is less the fee and more the difficulty of obtaining the evidence of citizenship required for these documents. For people who were born in an impoverished, rural, or otherwise challenging context may have significant difficulty and face significant expense in obtaining a birth certificate, or no such birth certificate may exist. Historically, alternate documents attesting to the context of birth (for example, issued by a Catholic diocese on baptism or by a sovereign indigenous nation as documentation of membership) have been accepted to handle these situations, but modern voter ID laws often exclude such alternate documents. Further, under federal policy evidence of birth is often not the only document, and other documents are required as well. The summary is that there is, for the last decade or so, a "second wave" of voter ID laws which are more stringent and difficult to satisfy than nearly any historical identification scheme. In some cases obtaining a state voting-only ID is even more difficult in terms of documentation than obtaining a US passport, even aside the relatively high fee and long processing time for a passport. This is what leads to these laws being widely interpreted as intended to reduce access to the polls rather than to address fraud. Further complicating matters, the Help America Vote Act of 2002 imposed federal-level voter ID requirements. However, the federal government is not able to "override" voting legislation put in place by the states, which are solely responsible for administering elections. The result is that in some states, such as this one, there are two simultaneous paths for voter registration: the "state form" and the "federal form." The federal form actually imposes stricter ID requirements than the state form. For reasons I am not entirely clear on, HAVA requirements are interpreted as applying to all by-mail registration, with the result that some voters have to choose between obtaining additional ID documents (such as an SSN) to register by mail, or traveling to a county seat or other location where voter registration agents are available, where they can register to vote without these documents. Fortunately, there has long been a good deal of effort in getting librarians and other "prominent members of the community" certified as voter registration agents to make this route more accessible - in addition to the political parties often having their volunteers certified so that they can conduct door-to-door campaigns and be available at community events, although of course they often do this in ways that leads to the resulting registration turnout being party-biased. In addition to adding more friction for individuals legally entitled to vote to exercise that right, the situation is frankly just confusing, which creates a big window for disinformation that even discourages people from registering when they would have an easy time doing so. Just adding slight confusion to the whole matter is the fact that, due to a long-running aversion to citizen ID programs, the responsibility of tracking and identifying citizens has been de facto imposed upon the social security administration and motor vehicle administrators (DMV, MVD, etc). This creates a lot of confusion among especially people with limited government access - is it possible to vote without having an SSN? without being able to drive?

Camillo 6y ago

It doesn't stop there, though. To vote you need to be alive, and to stay alive you need food and drink, neither of which is free. You need some means of getting to the polling place, which also costs money. Even if you walk, you need shoes, which aren't free. In fact, if you don't want to be stopped by the jackbooted goons of the state while you're on the street, you better be wearing clothing, which you also need to pay for. Really, the entire economy is a poll tax meant to keep the poor voter down.