6 ms·

Micropayments have been tried. They all failed. The fair market price for content is $0. What is happening is that the only publishers that will exist shall be

by zelly 6y ago

Micropayments have been tried. They all failed. The fair market price for content is $0. What is happening is that the only publishers that will exist shall be only those who create it for free. There is simply a glut of content out there because the barrier to creating content is completely gone.

hinkley 6y ago
Free, loss leader, or honeypot. Most places use content to get you to look at ads, but some places write content as a sort of ad itself - we said something thoughtful to build brand recognition, consumer confidence.
- methou 6y ago
  Ja, I've seen enough of these sites, the content is awful but filled the first pages in my Google search. I used to call them malicious SEO sites, but your point makes better sense than my hatred.
KajMagnus 6y ago
> Micropayments have been tried. They all failed Would be interesting to read about that — you happen to have any links? I websearched for "failed micropayments" and found: "One type of micropayment that does work — one you might not even think of as a micropayment — is in-app-purchases (IAP). IAP are a huge source of revenue [...]" And: "One reason users don’t like micropayments for content [to read] is it requires a decision ... waste the users’ mental effort ... costs so little that its implied worth is almost nothing" (here: https://blog.applovin.com/why-micropayments-fail-and-one-notable-success-story/ https://blog.applovin.com/why-micropayments-fail-and-one-not... )
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- zelly 6y ago
  Sure, just look around, do you see any successful micropayments processing companies? Do you use any of them? If any of them were successful, you wouldn't be asking this question. There was a wave of micropayments startups about 6 years ago. The only one I remember is Flattr. The crypto bubble came and gave new hope because maybe the reason micropayments failed before was the credit card processing fees. Nope, still didn't work. I don't use Brave Rewards and have never heard of anyone making more than pennies with it. Xanadu was one of the original visions of the internet from the 1960s. It sounded like a lot of the idealistic plans people come up with for micropayments where content creators can collect micropayments from viewers. Of course it didn't work. Micropayments is an absolute cemetery of a business model.
  - KajMagnus 6y ago
    Thanks for the reply, didn't know about Xanadu. Didn't come to think about Flattr. > If any of them were successful, you wouldn't be asking this question If you change from to: "successful" to "hugely successful in all English speaking countries" then I agree ... almost, But there're also different continents and countries and different languages ... Which prompted me to now search for "Chinese micropayments" — and: > "[the company's] growing profit margins are riding the wave of China's exploding media micropayment economy" https://www.musicbusinessworldwide.com/tencent-music-uses-tipping-to-rack-up-revenues-why-arent-western-music-streaming-platforms-doing-the-same/ https://www.musicbusinessworldwide.com/tencent-music-uses-ti... Reading a bit more on different sites: Apparently this started 5 years ago and has been working well, in China. Micropayments. A little bit I got the impression it's currently being used primarily for tipping.
Dotnaught 6y ago
>The fair market price for content is $0. That's a gross oversimplification. Lots of content isn't worth anything but some is. If you're a stock trader, for example, certain timely information is well-worth paying for. And there's a market for that served by Bloomberg, Thomson-Reuters, and so on. The term "content" obscures the differences by suggesting its all interchangeable. That's certainly in the interest of the Googles and Facebooks of the world: When all content is equal, no content creator has any negotiating power. But there's a distinction between a multi-month investigative report and hastily paraphrased rewrite at some fly-by-night website intent on capturing algorithmic ad dollars. Pricing news content is hard because it has a different value to different people and often the value is only apparent after it has been consumed. It's worth asking how much we will pay for reports on political corruption, civic injustice, and so on. If the price for content is $0, the signal to noise ratio will disappear.
- marcus_holmes 6y ago
  I think journalism is going to have to clean up its act a lot before I'm willing to trust it enough to pay for it. I'm seeing more credible journalism done by bloggers than the mainstream media at the moment.
- zelly 6y ago
  I meant "content" as in cultural content--articles, Q&A submissions, blog posts, takes, memes, recipes, how-tos, tutorials. Content that makes up >80% of G search results. At one time, there was a price for such content because you could only get it from a print publication or from broadcast television. Now that there are no barriers to posting, we see how many people actually want to publish content even if they have to pay out of pocket to host it (i.e., making the price of their content negative since the consumer gets to freeload bandwidth without ads and consume content). > Pricing news content is hard because it has a different value to different people and often the value is only apparent after it has been consumed. You're suggesting that journalism is a public good because the value is captured by society as a whole as opposed to by the individual newspaper subscriber. I wouldn't argue against investigative journalism being important for democracy etc., but why does it need to cost anything (even by the public)? What about the whole Harvey Weinstein/MeToo saga which started after some individuals made some tweets without being paid by a journalism company to do so. There is no shortage of outraged citizen activists who will do "investigative journalism". I don't know why their free work should automatically be considered inferior just because they don't have a journalism degree and aren't being paid by a journalism company.
ericflo 6y ago
What about games? People pay tons of money for them, and they are content too. When Cyberpunk 2077 comes out later this year, try telling people it's worth $0. I think the difference is social norms. The internet having no real built-in payment mechanism has obliterated the norm of paying for most content. Games have held the line, but things like Google Stadia and Apple Arcade are working to change that.
- zelly 6y ago
  A game is intellectual property like a movie. If I copy and paste 1/5th of your game, you can sue me and win. If I copy and paste 1/5th of your blog post, as long as I put quote marks around it, I'm safe. Games won't become free until it's easy for commoners to make them. Even with Unity and all the easy plug and chug game dev resources, it's still hard and requires multiple people with different talents.
  - schmudde 6y ago
    It's social norms and perceived value (which are interrelated). From sampling music to quoting literature - there is case precedent and fair use. Software is no different. When Compaq reverse-engineered the IBM PC BIOS, the standards were incredibly high. If I violate a GPL license or steal some copywritten Unity code for my game - I'm probably pretty safe. Unless, of course, a bunch of people agree that my software is valuable. I could be in big trouble if that's the case, even if I give it away for free (as in beer) and never make a cent off it.
slightwinder 6y ago
> Micropayments have been tried. They all failed. The fair market price for content is $0. To be fair, most were aweful and never reached critical mass. And many were to early and badly placed. Today situation is different. Patreon, twitch, youtube, netflix, spotify and all the other paid services proof that people are willing to pay something for content, to their conditions. I think a well implemented micro-payment could work out today well enough to be viable. Something build into the browsers and aggregator-sites (reddit, hackernews, google news, facebook...) first. Most users don't wanna waste their time with micromanaging their bills, so make it optional, and automate it for the rest of the time.
rb808 6y ago
>The fair market price for content is $0. I would have agree with this two years ago but things have changed. I'm just worn down with the huge volume of free dross that doesn't tell you anything. This year I've started subscribing to a bunch of resources and stopped with google news/fb noise.
zrail 6y ago
The legions of small publishers making a living on substack beg to differ.
- nl 6y ago
  1) Subscription is not the same thing as micropayments (as they are commonly understood) 2) It's pretty unclear to me that Substack actually lets "legions" of writers make a living. https://substack.com/discover https://substack.com/discover lists the top (income making?) writers, and it drops off very quickly. By number 25, it is "hundreds of subscribers" paying $10/month. That's a nice hobby income but isn't really "a living".

by zelly 6y ago

hinkley 6y ago

Free, loss leader, or honeypot. Most places use content to get you to look at ads, but some places write content as a sort of ad itself - we said something thoughtful to build brand recognition, consumer confidence.

methou 6y ago
Ja, I've seen enough of these sites, the content is awful but filled the first pages in my Google search. I used to call them malicious SEO sites, but your point makes better sense than my hatred.

KajMagnus 6y ago

> Micropayments have been tried. They all failed Would be interesting to read about that — you happen to have any links? I websearched for "failed micropayments" and found: "One type of micropayment that does work — one you might not even think of as a micropayment — is in-app-purchases (IAP). IAP are a huge source of revenue [...]" And: "One reason users don’t like micropayments for content [to read] is it requires a decision ... waste the users’ mental effort ... costs so little that its implied worth is almost nothing" (here: https://blog.applovin.com/why-micropayments-fail-and-one-notable-success-story/ https://blog.applovin.com/why-micropayments-fail-and-one-not... )

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
zelly 6y ago
Sure, just look around, do you see any successful micropayments processing companies? Do you use any of them? If any of them were successful, you wouldn't be asking this question. There was a wave of micropayments startups about 6 years ago. The only one I remember is Flattr. The crypto bubble came and gave new hope because maybe the reason micropayments failed before was the credit card processing fees. Nope, still didn't work. I don't use Brave Rewards and have never heard of anyone making more than pennies with it. Xanadu was one of the original visions of the internet from the 1960s. It sounded like a lot of the idealistic plans people come up with for micropayments where content creators can collect micropayments from viewers. Of course it didn't work. Micropayments is an absolute cemetery of a business model.
- KajMagnus 6y ago
  Thanks for the reply, didn't know about Xanadu. Didn't come to think about Flattr. > If any of them were successful, you wouldn't be asking this question If you change from to: "successful" to "hugely successful in all English speaking countries" then I agree ... almost, But there're also different continents and countries and different languages ... Which prompted me to now search for "Chinese micropayments" — and: > "[the company's] growing profit margins are riding the wave of China's exploding media micropayment economy" https://www.musicbusinessworldwide.com/tencent-music-uses-tipping-to-rack-up-revenues-why-arent-western-music-streaming-platforms-doing-the-same/ https://www.musicbusinessworldwide.com/tencent-music-uses-ti... Reading a bit more on different sites: Apparently this started 5 years ago and has been working well, in China. Micropayments. A little bit I got the impression it's currently being used primarily for tipping.

Dotnaught 6y ago

>The fair market price for content is $0. That's a gross oversimplification. Lots of content isn't worth anything but some is. If you're a stock trader, for example, certain timely information is well-worth paying for. And there's a market for that served by Bloomberg, Thomson-Reuters, and so on. The term "content" obscures the differences by suggesting its all interchangeable. That's certainly in the interest of the Googles and Facebooks of the world: When all content is equal, no content creator has any negotiating power. But there's a distinction between a multi-month investigative report and hastily paraphrased rewrite at some fly-by-night website intent on capturing algorithmic ad dollars. Pricing news content is hard because it has a different value to different people and often the value is only apparent after it has been consumed. It's worth asking how much we will pay for reports on political corruption, civic injustice, and so on. If the price for content is $0, the signal to noise ratio will disappear.

marcus_holmes 6y ago
I think journalism is going to have to clean up its act a lot before I'm willing to trust it enough to pay for it. I'm seeing more credible journalism done by bloggers than the mainstream media at the moment.
zelly 6y ago
I meant "content" as in cultural content--articles, Q&A submissions, blog posts, takes, memes, recipes, how-tos, tutorials. Content that makes up >80% of G search results. At one time, there was a price for such content because you could only get it from a print publication or from broadcast television. Now that there are no barriers to posting, we see how many people actually want to publish content even if they have to pay out of pocket to host it (i.e., making the price of their content negative since the consumer gets to freeload bandwidth without ads and consume content). > Pricing news content is hard because it has a different value to different people and often the value is only apparent after it has been consumed. You're suggesting that journalism is a public good because the value is captured by society as a whole as opposed to by the individual newspaper subscriber. I wouldn't argue against investigative journalism being important for democracy etc., but why does it need to cost anything (even by the public)? What about the whole Harvey Weinstein/MeToo saga which started after some individuals made some tweets without being paid by a journalism company to do so. There is no shortage of outraged citizen activists who will do "investigative journalism". I don't know why their free work should automatically be considered inferior just because they don't have a journalism degree and aren't being paid by a journalism company.

ericflo 6y ago

What about games? People pay tons of money for them, and they are content too. When Cyberpunk 2077 comes out later this year, try telling people it's worth $0. I think the difference is social norms. The internet having no real built-in payment mechanism has obliterated the norm of paying for most content. Games have held the line, but things like Google Stadia and Apple Arcade are working to change that.

zelly 6y ago
A game is intellectual property like a movie. If I copy and paste 1/5th of your game, you can sue me and win. If I copy and paste 1/5th of your blog post, as long as I put quote marks around it, I'm safe. Games won't become free until it's easy for commoners to make them. Even with Unity and all the easy plug and chug game dev resources, it's still hard and requires multiple people with different talents.
- schmudde 6y ago
  It's social norms and perceived value (which are interrelated). From sampling music to quoting literature - there is case precedent and fair use. Software is no different. When Compaq reverse-engineered the IBM PC BIOS, the standards were incredibly high. If I violate a GPL license or steal some copywritten Unity code for my game - I'm probably pretty safe. Unless, of course, a bunch of people agree that my software is valuable. I could be in big trouble if that's the case, even if I give it away for free (as in beer) and never make a cent off it.

slightwinder 6y ago

> Micropayments have been tried. They all failed. The fair market price for content is $0. To be fair, most were aweful and never reached critical mass. And many were to early and badly placed. Today situation is different. Patreon, twitch, youtube, netflix, spotify and all the other paid services proof that people are willing to pay something for content, to their conditions. I think a well implemented micro-payment could work out today well enough to be viable. Something build into the browsers and aggregator-sites (reddit, hackernews, google news, facebook...) first. Most users don't wanna waste their time with micromanaging their bills, so make it optional, and automate it for the rest of the time.

rb808 6y ago

>The fair market price for content is $0. I would have agree with this two years ago but things have changed. I'm just worn down with the huge volume of free dross that doesn't tell you anything. This year I've started subscribing to a bunch of resources and stopped with google news/fb noise.

zrail 6y ago

The legions of small publishers making a living on substack beg to differ.

nl 6y ago
1) Subscription is not the same thing as micropayments (as they are commonly understood) 2) It's pretty unclear to me that Substack actually lets "legions" of writers make a living. https://substack.com/discover https://substack.com/discover lists the top (income making?) writers, and it drops off very quickly. By number 25, it is "hundreds of subscribers" paying $10/month. That's a nice hobby income but isn't really "a living".