9 ms·

I am amazed at how well these criminals from another country know the details of the systems in the US when we in the US have probably a handful of people who u

I am amazed at how well these criminals from another country know the details of the systems in the US when we in the US have probably a handful of people who understand the end-to-end line they do. I am not surprised this is happening. The small offices in each state are responsible for 100s of millions of dollars and they awfully unequipped for it. This is sort of thing that the federal government should do and provide a portal for each state to use so that they can track and do stuff across states to look for fraud. However i don’t know if states rights and separation of duties screws this up.

mistrial9 6y ago
people in business in the USA hire outsiders to do the dirty work, or afterwards such relationship leaks the details provided, to others who are just willing.. Why is USA federal IT work outsourced three times before it is done? What USA business owners, former owners, their accountants and others, are just in it for the money and tired of others winning while they work so hard and lose, etc.. SO .. there is some collusion across borders, most likely
MattGaiser 6y ago
> when we in the US have probably a handful of people who understand the end-to-end line they do. Is it a hard thing to understand or is it just something that doesn't get done? I work for a municipal government (not in social assistance though). Very little is documented, not because it would be hard to do so, but because first everything from budget to approved software for documentation to time allocation to 5 different approvals would be required to do it. We are terrible at sharing information internally, so every thing would require meeting after meeting to chase down who knows what as well. Actually documenting the system I work on would take 1-2 days. But we initiated an overarching documentation plan in November and it is still being worked on (if it has not died from neglect).
avianlyric 6y ago
> I am amazed at how well these criminals from another country know the details of the systems in the US when we in the US have probably a handful of people who understand the end-to-end line they do. It’s quite literally a criminals job to understand and abuse these systems, and there’s very clear link between their performance and their reward. Makes for a good motivator. People frequently underestimate criminals because they don’t appreciate that these individuals are doing this work as full time job. I’m sure if you spent 8 hours a day for week, you’ll have an equally good understanding.
- joncrane 6y ago
  I always find it ironic that for all but the most lucrative criminal enterprises, if the criminal applied the same amount of effort towards pursuing legitimate employment, they would come out ahead (adjusted for risk of course). Some people just enjoy "getting over" more, to the point that they will discount their labor used for such schemes.
  - exhilaration 6y ago
    Adjusted for location as well. I'm very skeptical that these Nigerians can find anything this lucrative within their own country.
  - tyre 6y ago
    How do you know that to be true? Social engineering, much hacking, scamming, etc. don't care about race or gender or connections or degrees, all of which are very real things limiting people's professional success. Many can be done without interacting with a team and without any kind of interview, both of which are skills. I doubt these people are discounting their time or labor. They might be optimizing for the opportunities available to them. Willingness to do something illegal could reasonably be seen as an arbitrage opportunity—something seen in business all the time.
    - CSMastermind 6y ago
      There's a famous bit of research done by the guy who wrote Freakonomics. He tracked how much drug dealers were actually making and found that if they just got a job at McDonald's they'd have a higher income.
      - withdavidli 6y ago
        If I remember correctly, that was for low level weed dealers, not scamming financial systems. A successful identify theft of a middle or upper income family will reap a payout much greater than a fast food worker.
pnw_hazor 6y ago
Many of the US systems were/are very trust based. Unfortunately trust based systems are too vulnerable to fraud these days. It will take time to redevelop the systems and thinking to be more fraud resistant. However, many in the US equate validation or verification as too intrusive, too discriminatory, or both.
mattm 6y ago
> we in the US have probably a handful of people who understand When I moved to the US from Canada and HR was helping me setup my health insurance on the first day, I was overwhelmed trying to understand it and said "Sorry, I don't really understand how health insurance works here." The HR person responded: "That's ok. Most Americans don't understand how it works either."
- meshaneian 6y ago
  That HR representative appears quite talented. Nobody knows how it works, or there would/could not be significant "administrative" changes daily as insurance companies (and really any businesses) find new ways to take more of your money without any risk or possible recourse. They do whatever they want.. at least that they believe they can get away with long enough to make a profit.
- m463 6y ago
  I think a lot of US immigrants are more well versed in the workings of the US government than native born citizens. This is because they have a source of comparison, and it is on the test! (if they go for citizenship) Although some US citizens get how well some things work in the US compared to other countries, they have blind spots for some things that don't. I got sick in Mexico once and went to a doctor there. I paid in cash and it was something like $2. If I wanted, I could get my medicine in pill or hypodermic form.
  - IIAOPSW 6y ago
    I know there's some controversial history adjacent to this idea, but I think everyone (native born included) should pass the test before they can vote. I also think we should throw out the voting age and the felony condition and ONLY have a voting test.
    - gnicholas 6y ago
      Who gets to decide what’s on the test? Also, what languages would it be available in? Seems hopelessly fraught (and likely illegal). https://slate.com/human-interest/2013/06/voting-rights-and-the-supreme-court-the-impossible-literacy-test-louisiana-used-to-give-black-voters.html https://slate.com/human-interest/2013/06/voting-rights-and-t...
LudwigNagasena 6y ago
> However i don’t know if states rights and separation of duties screws this up. The history of the US shows that such things matter only when there is no bipartisan support. See for example the Commerce Clause that explicitly grants the Congress the power to regulate interstate trade, yet it is used as a basis to justify intrastate regulations (e.g. drug prohibition).
- unishark 6y ago
  This seems to e a general cultural thing where rules are seen as malleable. See how well the lockdown is (not) being adhered to.
- neilparikh 6y ago
  > See for example the Commerce Clause that explicitly grants the Congress the power to regulate interstate trade, yet it is used as a basis to justify intrastate regulations (e.g. drug prohibition). If anyone is curious, this is due to Wickard v. Filburn (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn), a very unfortunate Supreme Court decision made in 1942. This decision was cited as precedent in Gonzales v. Raich (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzales_v._Raich https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzales_v._Raich)
ramblerman 6y ago
It seems strange to me to fight corruption and fraud by creatiung an even larger institution with more cash to manage.
Kronen 6y ago
What details? > The investigator said in some states fraudsters need only to submit someone’s name, Social Security number and other basic information for their claims to be processed. This is the problem, a complete lack of security. Why doesn't the US use an electronic signature supported by a digital certificate as we do in Europe?
- xerox13ster 6y ago
  Has there been a real profitable incentive to implement the technology? Then why spend the money for a risk that may not have an impact tends to be the mindset.
  - Kronen 6y ago
    Well you have an incentive when you read stuff like this: - Hackers from China are believed to have stolen the social security number for every US federal employee in a cyber-attack much larger than it first seemed (2015) - For the first time ever, data breaches compromised more Social Security numbers (35 percent) than credit card numbers (30 percent). The Equifax breach was largely responsible for that. (2017) - If a cyberthief has your name, address and SSN, he is not far from being able to steal your identity. (2018)
moduspol 6y ago
> I am not surprised this is happening. The small offices in each state are responsible for 100s of millions of dollars and they awfully unequipped for it. But trust us when we tell you that voter fraud isn't happening, that mail-in ballots offer no increased risks, and that non-citizens aren't voting.
- OldHand2018 6y ago
  Every piece of mail must enter the system and be postmarked correctly. The US postal service certainly will not accept or deliver a piece of mail with a "Miami Beach, FL" postmark addressed to the "Sacramento Board of Elections" if it comes in with a batch of Par Avion mail off a plane from Nigeria. You understand that the standard ML training data for OCR is from the US postal service, right? They've been routing mail electronically for decades. The election system in the US is ridiculously decentralized, which makes it really hard to commit large-scale voter fraud at the ballot level.
- tres 6y ago
  [Citation Needed] Not that it's either relevant or germane to a discussion regarding an organization using stolen identity to wire funds electronically. Multiple states have been using mail-in ballots for literally decades. No widespread voter fraud has ever been reported. Here's an anecdote for you: a few elections back, my signature didn't look quite right on the envelope of my ballot. Got a call from elections officials to verify that I had in fact filled out the ballot. There's a lot more control involved in mail-in voting than there are in fraudulently filling-out an online form and receiving an electronic funds transfer.
  - moduspol 6y ago
    > Not that it's either relevant or germane to a discussion regarding an organization using stolen identity to wire funds electronically. It's absolutely relevant, particularly when the article discusses "mules" in the US (with US mailing addresses) being used in furtherance of the scheme on behalf of foreign individuals. If it can be done to steal hundreds of millions of dollars by Nigerians using recipients' PII, it's difficult to imagine how it couldn't be done with mail-in ballots. If it isn't already, it's only a matter of time until it's worth doing to someone.

mistrial9 6y ago

people in business in the USA hire outsiders to do the dirty work, or afterwards such relationship leaks the details provided, to others who are just willing.. Why is USA federal IT work outsourced three times before it is done? What USA business owners, former owners, their accountants and others, are just in it for the money and tired of others winning while they work so hard and lose, etc.. SO .. there is some collusion across borders, most likely

MattGaiser 6y ago

> when we in the US have probably a handful of people who understand the end-to-end line they do. Is it a hard thing to understand or is it just something that doesn't get done? I work for a municipal government (not in social assistance though). Very little is documented, not because it would be hard to do so, but because first everything from budget to approved software for documentation to time allocation to 5 different approvals would be required to do it. We are terrible at sharing information internally, so every thing would require meeting after meeting to chase down who knows what as well. Actually documenting the system I work on would take 1-2 days. But we initiated an overarching documentation plan in November and it is still being worked on (if it has not died from neglect).

avianlyric 6y ago

> I am amazed at how well these criminals from another country know the details of the systems in the US when we in the US have probably a handful of people who understand the end-to-end line they do. It’s quite literally a criminals job to understand and abuse these systems, and there’s very clear link between their performance and their reward. Makes for a good motivator. People frequently underestimate criminals because they don’t appreciate that these individuals are doing this work as full time job. I’m sure if you spent 8 hours a day for week, you’ll have an equally good understanding.

joncrane 6y ago
I always find it ironic that for all but the most lucrative criminal enterprises, if the criminal applied the same amount of effort towards pursuing legitimate employment, they would come out ahead (adjusted for risk of course). Some people just enjoy "getting over" more, to the point that they will discount their labor used for such schemes.
- exhilaration 6y ago
  Adjusted for location as well. I'm very skeptical that these Nigerians can find anything this lucrative within their own country.
- tyre 6y ago
  How do you know that to be true? Social engineering, much hacking, scamming, etc. don't care about race or gender or connections or degrees, all of which are very real things limiting people's professional success. Many can be done without interacting with a team and without any kind of interview, both of which are skills. I doubt these people are discounting their time or labor. They might be optimizing for the opportunities available to them. Willingness to do something illegal could reasonably be seen as an arbitrage opportunity—something seen in business all the time.
  - CSMastermind 6y ago
    There's a famous bit of research done by the guy who wrote Freakonomics. He tracked how much drug dealers were actually making and found that if they just got a job at McDonald's they'd have a higher income.
    - withdavidli 6y ago
      If I remember correctly, that was for low level weed dealers, not scamming financial systems. A successful identify theft of a middle or upper income family will reap a payout much greater than a fast food worker.

pnw_hazor 6y ago

Many of the US systems were/are very trust based. Unfortunately trust based systems are too vulnerable to fraud these days. It will take time to redevelop the systems and thinking to be more fraud resistant. However, many in the US equate validation or verification as too intrusive, too discriminatory, or both.

mattm 6y ago

> we in the US have probably a handful of people who understand When I moved to the US from Canada and HR was helping me setup my health insurance on the first day, I was overwhelmed trying to understand it and said "Sorry, I don't really understand how health insurance works here." The HR person responded: "That's ok. Most Americans don't understand how it works either."

meshaneian 6y ago
That HR representative appears quite talented. Nobody knows how it works, or there would/could not be significant "administrative" changes daily as insurance companies (and really any businesses) find new ways to take more of your money without any risk or possible recourse. They do whatever they want.. at least that they believe they can get away with long enough to make a profit.
m463 6y ago
I think a lot of US immigrants are more well versed in the workings of the US government than native born citizens. This is because they have a source of comparison, and it is on the test! (if they go for citizenship) Although some US citizens get how well some things work in the US compared to other countries, they have blind spots for some things that don't. I got sick in Mexico once and went to a doctor there. I paid in cash and it was something like $2. If I wanted, I could get my medicine in pill or hypodermic form.
- IIAOPSW 6y ago
  I know there's some controversial history adjacent to this idea, but I think everyone (native born included) should pass the test before they can vote. I also think we should throw out the voting age and the felony condition and ONLY have a voting test.
  - gnicholas 6y ago
    Who gets to decide what’s on the test? Also, what languages would it be available in? Seems hopelessly fraught (and likely illegal). https://slate.com/human-interest/2013/06/voting-rights-and-the-supreme-court-the-impossible-literacy-test-louisiana-used-to-give-black-voters.html https://slate.com/human-interest/2013/06/voting-rights-and-t...

LudwigNagasena 6y ago

> However i don’t know if states rights and separation of duties screws this up. The history of the US shows that such things matter only when there is no bipartisan support. See for example the Commerce Clause that explicitly grants the Congress the power to regulate interstate trade, yet it is used as a basis to justify intrastate regulations (e.g. drug prohibition).

unishark 6y ago
This seems to e a general cultural thing where rules are seen as malleable. See how well the lockdown is (not) being adhered to.
neilparikh 6y ago
> See for example the Commerce Clause that explicitly grants the Congress the power to regulate interstate trade, yet it is used as a basis to justify intrastate regulations (e.g. drug prohibition). If anyone is curious, this is due to Wickard v. Filburn (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn), a very unfortunate Supreme Court decision made in 1942. This decision was cited as precedent in Gonzales v. Raich (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzales_v._Raich https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzales_v._Raich)

ramblerman 6y ago

It seems strange to me to fight corruption and fraud by creatiung an even larger institution with more cash to manage.

Kronen 6y ago

What details? > The investigator said in some states fraudsters need only to submit someone’s name, Social Security number and other basic information for their claims to be processed. This is the problem, a complete lack of security. Why doesn't the US use an electronic signature supported by a digital certificate as we do in Europe?

xerox13ster 6y ago
Has there been a real profitable incentive to implement the technology? Then why spend the money for a risk that may not have an impact tends to be the mindset.
- Kronen 6y ago
  Well you have an incentive when you read stuff like this: - Hackers from China are believed to have stolen the social security number for every US federal employee in a cyber-attack much larger than it first seemed (2015) - For the first time ever, data breaches compromised more Social Security numbers (35 percent) than credit card numbers (30 percent). The Equifax breach was largely responsible for that. (2017) - If a cyberthief has your name, address and SSN, he is not far from being able to steal your identity. (2018)

moduspol 6y ago

> I am not surprised this is happening. The small offices in each state are responsible for 100s of millions of dollars and they awfully unequipped for it. But trust us when we tell you that voter fraud isn't happening, that mail-in ballots offer no increased risks, and that non-citizens aren't voting.

OldHand2018 6y ago
Every piece of mail must enter the system and be postmarked correctly. The US postal service certainly will not accept or deliver a piece of mail with a "Miami Beach, FL" postmark addressed to the "Sacramento Board of Elections" if it comes in with a batch of Par Avion mail off a plane from Nigeria. You understand that the standard ML training data for OCR is from the US postal service, right? They've been routing mail electronically for decades. The election system in the US is ridiculously decentralized, which makes it really hard to commit large-scale voter fraud at the ballot level.
tres 6y ago
[Citation Needed] Not that it's either relevant or germane to a discussion regarding an organization using stolen identity to wire funds electronically. Multiple states have been using mail-in ballots for literally decades. No widespread voter fraud has ever been reported. Here's an anecdote for you: a few elections back, my signature didn't look quite right on the envelope of my ballot. Got a call from elections officials to verify that I had in fact filled out the ballot. There's a lot more control involved in mail-in voting than there are in fraudulently filling-out an online form and receiving an electronic funds transfer.
- moduspol 6y ago
  > Not that it's either relevant or germane to a discussion regarding an organization using stolen identity to wire funds electronically. It's absolutely relevant, particularly when the article discusses "mules" in the US (with US mailing addresses) being used in furtherance of the scheme on behalf of foreign individuals. If it can be done to steal hundreds of millions of dollars by Nigerians using recipients' PII, it's difficult to imagine how it couldn't be done with mail-in ballots. If it isn't already, it's only a matter of time until it's worth doing to someone.