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>"The new wave of food-delivery start-ups wants to know how they do it." Miniscule labor costs and scant workers rights. The "gig" economy is simply replicati

>"The new wave of food-delivery start-ups wants to know how they do it." Miniscule labor costs and scant workers rights. The "gig" economy is simply replicating in the west what has already existed in highly stratified societies for generations now that wealth inequality has finally reached a point where it can be profitable.

pen2l 6y ago
I visited Pakistan a few years ago, my homeland, after some 20 years of being in the states. I was being driven around by my 18 year old cousin. At some point, just completely randomly, some youngin' - I would estimate about 15 years of age, entered the car, in the backseat. My Urdu was a little off, I couldn't make out exactly what had happened, I assumed the guy was my cousin's friend. No, it turns out he was just doing a chore for a few pennies. It's the strangest fucking thing, dealing with these people. They're always there, just one command away. Being in America, I say my thank yous to cashiers or anyone of lesser means, exchange pleasantries, I never see them as lesser humans than me. But in that part of the world, if you look a certain way and dress a certain way, these folks will come to you for chores for a few pennies -- and they will almost present themselves as if they are lesser persons than you. And I would be speechless in those situations, I wouldn't know what to do or say. That properly fucked me in the head for a good while.
- rexpop 6y ago
  What do you mean, "fucked [you] in the head"? Like, you could not understand why someone would act like that? You had difficulty reconciling your expectations of human society with your experience in Pakistan? What changed?
  - pen2l 6y ago
    I meant it was shocking to see humans behaving so subserviently, being so at terms with their situation: making pennies for chores and yet being so hardworking. I don't want to call it slavery, but it's something around there.
    - sumedh 6y ago
      It's abject poverty, it's not slavery per se but that poor guy will do anything for money
    - rexpop 6y ago
      I see. Is it not also difficult to understand why you–an equally realized human with so many fingers and toes–would refuse to do chores for pennies? I recently read David Graeber's "Debt: The First 5,000 Years," and it helped explain why many find themselves (willingly?) shackled to menial labor.
- GordonS 6y ago
  I had something similar happen somewhere in India (I forget where, but probably Mumbai or Delhi), except we were in a taxi! My wife and I were in the back row, when the driver suddenly stopped, and a guy got in the front seat... and then 2 more got in the back, one at either side of us (which yes, was extremely uncomfortable). Nobody said a word the whole time. The driver drove off, and dropped all of them off a short time later. Very strange!
  - balladeer 6y ago
    Unfortunately that happens (happened personally with me many times) and it's indeed strange and dangerous.
  - sumedh 6y ago
    That would probably be in Delhi, not Mumbai. Mumbai's taxis almost never do this when they are running officially by the meter.
    - GordonS 6y ago
      And in my experience, Mumbai's taxis almost never run by a meter, and when they do it's very obviously rigged (at least when used by pasty Scots).
      - sumedh 6y ago
        Ah yes you were charged the white tax. Mumbai taxis are actually famous for going by the meter while pretty much taxis in other metro Indian cities dont. Since you dont look "Indian" the taxis know they can get more money out of you. Next time before you enter the taxi try saying "Meter say chalo" which in Hindi means go by the meter.
        GordonS 6y ago
        Yes, I/we were charged this tax on more or less every rick/taxi ride. If I even asked for the meter (in English, mind), rather than negotiated a price beforehand, we invariably got a rigged meter anyway! I'll try it in Hindi if I ever get back though!
- 0x8BADF00D 6y ago
  Something similar happened to me when I was in India. During peak traffic hours, this lady clothed entirely in black was pestering my taxi driver to buy something. Turns out the lady was a gypsy, and my superstitious cab driver begged me to buy her wares, otherwise he feared she would place a hex on him and his family. It’s really quite colorful in these localities.
  - jrochkind1 6y ago
    > my superstitious cab driver begged me to buy her wares, otherwise he feared she would place a hex on him and his family My guess would be there was no superstition involved, they just thought you could afford it, and he was trying to help her out by getting a sale for her. Heck, maybe he even got a commission.
  - smabie 6y ago
    Sounds like you got scammed by the cab driver.
- hi41 6y ago
  You put it so well. I am from India and what you said has been my experience too. If you have less money, your worth falls so much that you are barely considered human. I grew up in Mumbai as a high schooler and saw abject poverty. I have also lived in USA for close to 20 years and when I go back to India I don't remember the mental tools I used to use to harden myself against the massive injustice that cannot be ignored but one must to stay sane. e.g. My family and I were driving in a Maruthi 800 car and we stopped at the light. A little boy of 8 years came upto another car in front with a bunch of roses. He gave on rose to the person in the car but by then the light turned green and everybody started driving. The boy ran after this car with all his might he could gather from every single fiber in his body so he could collect the pennies. I remember my parents and I looking at this scene with sadness. When I used to travel by the suburban trains, I used to see little babies begging. I later learnt that the beggars were part of a much larger and powerful begging network. The adults would lay their (supposed) child with a big ulcer popping out the child's stomach so the passers-by would have pity and drop some change. I remember wanting to commit suicide after seeing such scenes. I used to look away just so I did not have to face the obvious questions that arise. It's a cruel world without money and no wonder we are all grabbing at whatever we can grab at driven by fear that one day we could end up in penury. It is the same in the USA sadly. A family is just one major sickness away from bankruptcy. The financially weak and people without power suffer everywhere.
- gambiting 6y ago
  >>Being in America, I say my thank yous to cashiers or anyone of lesser means, exchange pleasantries, I never see them as lesser humans than me. So I'm not saying that you do obviously, but when I visited America I found it really jarring how all hospitality people were behaving almost like....servants. I saw what felt like a huge amount of fake smiles and pleasantries , just to make sure I feel happy as a customer, and presumably an attempt to get a larger tip. It felt like people were avoiding direct eye contact and their body language seemed as if they were naturally assuming a position of a "lesser" status just to keep you happy. Again, that's just from a few visits over to America - maybe I was just very unlucky. But I had it every time in different cities.
  - fermienrico 6y ago
    There are a lot of things in US that feel like pleasantries - the tipping culture promotes this sort of thing. As an American, I disagree with the "servant" class attitude that you found in America. It is completely opposite, in fact, in a bad way sometimes. Middleclass Americans feel entitled about being able to do certain things and if that privilege is taken away, they will create chaos. In general, Americans have enterprising values - work hard, be pragmatic, meritocracy, avoid formalities and generally have intense sense of optimism. Americans engage in risk taking, especially in the upper middle class. 10 core American values: https://www.andrews.edu/~tidwell/bsad560/USValues.html https://www.andrews.edu/~tidwell/bsad560/USValues.html It is not a perfect place, rather a mosiac of various cultures. I've visited India (spent 9 months) and the diversity in India is quite staggering - literally every state is like its own country. However, there is little race diversity and internationalisation. America is a land of immigrants, good tolerance to other cultures and the idea of individualism is deeply rooted in the soul of this nation. Korean person could be found eating at an Egyptian restaurant, both the person and the restaurant owners are Americans. In India, I found almost casual racism - literally everywhere from advertisements to how the North (light skinned) treats the South (dark skinned) Indians. Of all nations I've had the chance to explore and understand - Japanese culture has the most "hierarchical" notion of society. I've worked with Japanese engineers who are afraid to speak up or mess up in order to avoid pissing off their superiors. The "servant" attitude you speak of - that is fully manifested in Japan - as a lifelong duty to serve others, excel in what you do and expect nothing in return (no tips in Japan). I admire certain aspects of it and it creates a peaceful harmony in the society. There are Japanese terms to explain it more clearly, I can't recall them.
- gumby 6y ago
  That’s interesting because as an Australian who has also been living in the USA for as long as you, the USA feels to me stratified the the way you describe. Tipping, the way people treat cleaners and other low status workers feels consistent with how people are treated when I am in India (my mother’s homeland not mine). At least one small thing is better there: I visited my cousin at work and there was a man in the lift who pushed the buttons for us. My cousin explained that he had been the lift operator before the automatic lift was installed and rather than have him lose his job they continued employing him. I’m not sure that would happen in modern America any more...or Australia for that matter.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
blueblisters 6y ago
Nah Dabbawalas are unionized and they effectively have control over what to charge their customers. The costs are low because, unlike other food-delivery startups, they are able to make money because of their ability to execute a hub and spoke model. Since they operate only during lunch time, and serve dense residential and office locations in Mumbai, they are able to aggregate orders both temporally and spatially. Havin a hub-and-spoke model is the only way to make money if you are a logistics company. Grubhub wrote a good bit about this in their investor letter. [1] [1] https://s2.q4cdn.com/772508021/files/doc_financials/2019/q3/October-2019-Shareholder-Letter.pdf https://s2.q4cdn.com/772508021/files/doc_financials/2019/q3/...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
konaraddi 6y ago
From the article: > A dabbawalas’ commitment to the job is partly because it pays well – roughly 12,000 rupees (£140) a month, a good salary in India for what is essentially unskilled labour. The fame of the dabbawalas also gives the job a certain prestige. This can lead to perks like discounted mobile phone subscriptions and scholarships for a dabbawala’s children funded by organisations keen to be associated with the respected network. > According to Sangle, the healthy-eating craze in India is good for dabbawalas as food companies are turning to them for delivery. Profits from these newer ventures are bumping the dabbawalas’ salaries up from 12,000 to 20,000 rupees a month, he says. The labor is cheap but the work pays relatively well. As Hans Rosling says in his book _Factfulness_: things can be both bad and better.

pen2l 6y ago

I visited Pakistan a few years ago, my homeland, after some 20 years of being in the states. I was being driven around by my 18 year old cousin. At some point, just completely randomly, some youngin' - I would estimate about 15 years of age, entered the car, in the backseat. My Urdu was a little off, I couldn't make out exactly what had happened, I assumed the guy was my cousin's friend. No, it turns out he was just doing a chore for a few pennies. It's the strangest fucking thing, dealing with these people. They're always there, just one command away. Being in America, I say my thank yous to cashiers or anyone of lesser means, exchange pleasantries, I never see them as lesser humans than me. But in that part of the world, if you look a certain way and dress a certain way, these folks will come to you for chores for a few pennies -- and they will almost present themselves as if they are lesser persons than you. And I would be speechless in those situations, I wouldn't know what to do or say. That properly fucked me in the head for a good while.

rexpop 6y ago
What do you mean, "fucked [you] in the head"? Like, you could not understand why someone would act like that? You had difficulty reconciling your expectations of human society with your experience in Pakistan? What changed?
- pen2l 6y ago
  I meant it was shocking to see humans behaving so subserviently, being so at terms with their situation: making pennies for chores and yet being so hardworking. I don't want to call it slavery, but it's something around there.
  - sumedh 6y ago
    It's abject poverty, it's not slavery per se but that poor guy will do anything for money
  - rexpop 6y ago
    I see. Is it not also difficult to understand why you–an equally realized human with so many fingers and toes–would refuse to do chores for pennies? I recently read David Graeber's "Debt: The First 5,000 Years," and it helped explain why many find themselves (willingly?) shackled to menial labor.
GordonS 6y ago
I had something similar happen somewhere in India (I forget where, but probably Mumbai or Delhi), except we were in a taxi! My wife and I were in the back row, when the driver suddenly stopped, and a guy got in the front seat... and then 2 more got in the back, one at either side of us (which yes, was extremely uncomfortable). Nobody said a word the whole time. The driver drove off, and dropped all of them off a short time later. Very strange!
- balladeer 6y ago
  Unfortunately that happens (happened personally with me many times) and it's indeed strange and dangerous.
- sumedh 6y ago
  That would probably be in Delhi, not Mumbai. Mumbai's taxis almost never do this when they are running officially by the meter.
  - GordonS 6y ago
    And in my experience, Mumbai's taxis almost never run by a meter, and when they do it's very obviously rigged (at least when used by pasty Scots).
    - sumedh 6y ago
      Ah yes you were charged the white tax. Mumbai taxis are actually famous for going by the meter while pretty much taxis in other metro Indian cities dont. Since you dont look "Indian" the taxis know they can get more money out of you. Next time before you enter the taxi try saying "Meter say chalo" which in Hindi means go by the meter.
      - GordonS 6y ago
        Yes, I/we were charged this tax on more or less every rick/taxi ride. If I even asked for the meter (in English, mind), rather than negotiated a price beforehand, we invariably got a rigged meter anyway! I'll try it in Hindi if I ever get back though!
0x8BADF00D 6y ago
Something similar happened to me when I was in India. During peak traffic hours, this lady clothed entirely in black was pestering my taxi driver to buy something. Turns out the lady was a gypsy, and my superstitious cab driver begged me to buy her wares, otherwise he feared she would place a hex on him and his family. It’s really quite colorful in these localities.
- jrochkind1 6y ago
  > my superstitious cab driver begged me to buy her wares, otherwise he feared she would place a hex on him and his family My guess would be there was no superstition involved, they just thought you could afford it, and he was trying to help her out by getting a sale for her. Heck, maybe he even got a commission.
- smabie 6y ago
  Sounds like you got scammed by the cab driver.
hi41 6y ago
You put it so well. I am from India and what you said has been my experience too. If you have less money, your worth falls so much that you are barely considered human. I grew up in Mumbai as a high schooler and saw abject poverty. I have also lived in USA for close to 20 years and when I go back to India I don't remember the mental tools I used to use to harden myself against the massive injustice that cannot be ignored but one must to stay sane. e.g. My family and I were driving in a Maruthi 800 car and we stopped at the light. A little boy of 8 years came upto another car in front with a bunch of roses. He gave on rose to the person in the car but by then the light turned green and everybody started driving. The boy ran after this car with all his might he could gather from every single fiber in his body so he could collect the pennies. I remember my parents and I looking at this scene with sadness. When I used to travel by the suburban trains, I used to see little babies begging. I later learnt that the beggars were part of a much larger and powerful begging network. The adults would lay their (supposed) child with a big ulcer popping out the child's stomach so the passers-by would have pity and drop some change. I remember wanting to commit suicide after seeing such scenes. I used to look away just so I did not have to face the obvious questions that arise. It's a cruel world without money and no wonder we are all grabbing at whatever we can grab at driven by fear that one day we could end up in penury. It is the same in the USA sadly. A family is just one major sickness away from bankruptcy. The financially weak and people without power suffer everywhere.
gambiting 6y ago
>>Being in America, I say my thank yous to cashiers or anyone of lesser means, exchange pleasantries, I never see them as lesser humans than me. So I'm not saying that you do obviously, but when I visited America I found it really jarring how all hospitality people were behaving almost like....servants. I saw what felt like a huge amount of fake smiles and pleasantries , just to make sure I feel happy as a customer, and presumably an attempt to get a larger tip. It felt like people were avoiding direct eye contact and their body language seemed as if they were naturally assuming a position of a "lesser" status just to keep you happy. Again, that's just from a few visits over to America - maybe I was just very unlucky. But I had it every time in different cities.
- fermienrico 6y ago
  There are a lot of things in US that feel like pleasantries - the tipping culture promotes this sort of thing. As an American, I disagree with the "servant" class attitude that you found in America. It is completely opposite, in fact, in a bad way sometimes. Middleclass Americans feel entitled about being able to do certain things and if that privilege is taken away, they will create chaos. In general, Americans have enterprising values - work hard, be pragmatic, meritocracy, avoid formalities and generally have intense sense of optimism. Americans engage in risk taking, especially in the upper middle class. 10 core American values: https://www.andrews.edu/~tidwell/bsad560/USValues.html https://www.andrews.edu/~tidwell/bsad560/USValues.html It is not a perfect place, rather a mosiac of various cultures. I've visited India (spent 9 months) and the diversity in India is quite staggering - literally every state is like its own country. However, there is little race diversity and internationalisation. America is a land of immigrants, good tolerance to other cultures and the idea of individualism is deeply rooted in the soul of this nation. Korean person could be found eating at an Egyptian restaurant, both the person and the restaurant owners are Americans. In India, I found almost casual racism - literally everywhere from advertisements to how the North (light skinned) treats the South (dark skinned) Indians. Of all nations I've had the chance to explore and understand - Japanese culture has the most "hierarchical" notion of society. I've worked with Japanese engineers who are afraid to speak up or mess up in order to avoid pissing off their superiors. The "servant" attitude you speak of - that is fully manifested in Japan - as a lifelong duty to serve others, excel in what you do and expect nothing in return (no tips in Japan). I admire certain aspects of it and it creates a peaceful harmony in the society. There are Japanese terms to explain it more clearly, I can't recall them.
gumby 6y ago
That’s interesting because as an Australian who has also been living in the USA for as long as you, the USA feels to me stratified the the way you describe. Tipping, the way people treat cleaners and other low status workers feels consistent with how people are treated when I am in India (my mother’s homeland not mine). At least one small thing is better there: I visited my cousin at work and there was a man in the lift who pushed the buttons for us. My cousin explained that he had been the lift operator before the automatic lift was installed and rather than have him lose his job they continued employing him. I’m not sure that would happen in modern America any more...or Australia for that matter.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

blueblisters 6y ago

Nah Dabbawalas are unionized and they effectively have control over what to charge their customers. The costs are low because, unlike other food-delivery startups, they are able to make money because of their ability to execute a hub and spoke model. Since they operate only during lunch time, and serve dense residential and office locations in Mumbai, they are able to aggregate orders both temporally and spatially. Havin a hub-and-spoke model is the only way to make money if you are a logistics company. Grubhub wrote a good bit about this in their investor letter. [1] [1] https://s2.q4cdn.com/772508021/files/doc_financials/2019/q3/October-2019-Shareholder-Letter.pdf https://s2.q4cdn.com/772508021/files/doc_financials/2019/q3/...

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

konaraddi 6y ago

From the article: > A dabbawalas’ commitment to the job is partly because it pays well – roughly 12,000 rupees (£140) a month, a good salary in India for what is essentially unskilled labour. The fame of the dabbawalas also gives the job a certain prestige. This can lead to perks like discounted mobile phone subscriptions and scholarships for a dabbawala’s children funded by organisations keen to be associated with the respected network. > According to Sangle, the healthy-eating craze in India is good for dabbawalas as food companies are turning to them for delivery. Profits from these newer ventures are bumping the dabbawalas’ salaries up from 12,000 to 20,000 rupees a month, he says. The labor is cheap but the work pays relatively well. As Hans Rosling says in his book _Factfulness_: things can be both bad and better.