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If I had cancer in the US a $65k bill really isn’t bad. Consider in the US taxes are typically <20%. So if you make $100k a year, you pay $20k in taxes. So you

If I had cancer in the US a $65k bill really isn’t bad. Consider in the US taxes are typically <20%. So if you make $100k a year, you pay $20k in taxes. So you have $80k, minus insurance (let’s eat $500/month) you have $74k In Germany (if I recall) it’s closer to 50% taxes so $50k a year. Presumably you can expect cancer once or less, but effectively you only need ~4 years of income to make up for that $65k bill in the US. Not bad at all. Obviously that differs based on income, but you can a see how (for many people in the US) the system works great

ido 6y ago
Total income-related taxes+health insurance in California are IIRC similar or higher than Germany. Also in either case the taxes on $100k/year are way less than 50%. EDIT from what I can tell from very quick googling total taxes on $100k in California would be ~29% (not including health insurance) where as in Germany they would be ~34% (on $100k = ~€92k, including health insurance). So I guess whatever's better in that example depends on if you think German health insurance is worth 5% of your income. Your $500/m amount to 6% of income so similar to Germany either way. Keep in mind this is for single & childless, and Germany has outrageously generous tax breaks for having children as well as being married when one spouse earns a lot less than the other.
- BeatLeJuce 6y ago
  After taxes, health care and Solidaritätszuschlag, your taxrate for 100k ist closer to 42% in Germany
  - ido 6y ago
    Not sure what you put in to get that number (keep in mind that $100k is roughly €92k) but there are many possible variables that can change your tax rate. In my personal case it is significantly lower than the number I posted above. I used mostly default values in the first online calculators I found for both California & Germany in the example in my original post.
    - querez 6y ago
      Just from personal experience: 42% is pretty much on the dot. It might be that with 92k you're still taxed in a lower class (or maybe you're married and thus getting a discount).
      - ido 6y ago
        Yes, I chose the wrong tax class by mistake. My personal tax rate is even lower than that as we have 2 kids & my wife and I file together (both self employed so we add up our incomes and file with all tax bracket at double the threshold). I think we ended up paying just over 15% off the top of my head but don't quote me on that (I earn less than €92k but still enough to have a very comfortable life). I knew you pay more as a single/childless person but I didn't realize just how much more - which makes it all the more surprising that Germans have such a low rate of both marriage and reproduction.
- ido 6y ago
  My number for Germany comes from https://www.brutto-netto-rechner.info/gehalt/gross_net_calculator_germany.php https://www.brutto-netto-rechner.info/gehalt/gross_net_calcu... & includes Solidaritätszuschlag & health insurance. But it depends on state and stuff like church taxes (optional, you can declare being atheist & pay none) plus other things like marital status, tax classes, which public health insurance you choose, etc. And the end of the day you pay similar taxes on income in Germany as you do in a high-tax US states like California.
- rayiner 6y ago
  I get different numbers from here: http://www.parmentier.de/steuer/steuer.htm?wagetax.htm http://www.parmentier.de/steuer/steuer.htm?wagetax.htm On 92,000 Euro I get 45% total. In California it’s 30%. Moreover, if you’re making $100,000, you’re almost certainly getting health insurance as part of the salary in California, so you don’t need to add the cost of health insurance on top of that.
  - ido 6y ago
    Ah, I think I see the difference - for singles (class I) it gives you 43%, I mistakenly chose the married category (class III, in my mind that was the "default" tax class - probably cause that's how I have always filed in Germany), in which case the rate is 33%.
tghw 6y ago
And what if you make the US median individual income of $31k?
- endtime 6y ago
  About 15.75% according to https://neuvoo.com/tax-calculator/?iam=&uet_calculate=calculate&salary=31000&from=year&region=Ohio https://neuvoo.com/tax-calculator/?iam=&uet_calculate=calcul...
- SECProto 6y ago
  If you make 31k, you likely don't have the good health insurance of the OP, and your final bill would be hundreds of thousands (i.e. it couldn't be afforded)
  - war1025 6y ago
    In reality you would end up on Medicaid. There would be limits to what hospitals you could go to for treatment, but you wouldn't be stuck with the bill in the end. Basically the way the American healthcare system works, they will eventually pick up the tab. They just go out of their way to bleed you dry on the way.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    If you make $31,000 as a non-elderly single person, you’re at 250% of the FPL and there is an 89% chance you’re insured: https://www.cbpp.org/uninsured-rates-are-higher-at-lower-income-levels https://www.cbpp.org/uninsured-rates-are-higher-at-lower-inc.... Under Obamacare, there really isn’t any health insurance plans that will leave you with hundreds of thousands in costs without coverage (leaving aside surprise out-of-network doctors and that’s a loophole people on both sides of the aisle are trying to fix).
ivanvanderbyl 6y ago
We get comparable treatment as Germany in Australia and pay comparable tax to America. I don't buy that this is a luxury of high tax paying countries. Something is systemically wrong in the US.
- 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 6y ago
  Yes. The problem is we simply pay much more for treatment and medicine in the US because it cost more. It’s actually an issue where I can see the landscape changing rapidly, and fully expect major changes in the next 5 or so years.
vertex-four 6y ago
Germany's average tax rate (according to the OECD) for a one-earner married couple with two children is 34.3%, while the same in the US is 18.8%. Taking these, the difference for your $100k/year example would be about 15k. You'd have about 80k in the US, and about 65k in Berlin. Now to compare cost of living - let's say you wanted to compare Berlin vs SF, for similarly ridiculous housing markets. A quick search[0] suggests that living in Berlin costs nearly half as much - Berlin's $65k is more like a San Francisco $130k. Now the downside is that you're not actually going to get paid as much in Berlin - maybe $68k as a senior software developer, as opposed to $135k-ish in SF. Plugging these numbers into a couple of actual quick tax calculators rather than using the averages, the Berliner makes about $41k, while the worker in San Francisco makes about $87k - although these are both without going through an accountant to massage the numbers. After our magic divider, that's a difference of about $2.5k. Perhaps the US allows an accountant to massage the numbers more than Germany, but honestly, as someone currently in Germany, that doesn't pass the smell test. So all in all, you wind up with $2.5k a year over the Berliner with which to cover everything that Germany's system does. And this is one of the best case scenarios - a high-salary tech worker with good benefits. For everyone else in the US, their quality of life and access to effective healthcare is likely to be significantly lower. [0] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Germany&city1=Berlin&country2=United+States&city2=San+Francisco%2C+CA https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
- rayiner 6y ago
  A high-tech worker living in SF is actually not “one of the best case scenarios.” As your calculations show, the insane cost of living blows out the somewhat higher income. In terms of actual prosperity, run the numbers for places like Iowa. Salaries are 1/2 as much in Des Moines than San Francisco, but a house costs about 1/8th as much. And 95% of people have health insurance. There is a reason people are actually flooding out of California and New York. I wonder if the insane costs and dysfunction of coastal cities is one of the driving factors of the differences in politics between those places and the rest of the country. I live in a Trump precinct in a historically red but recently purple county about an hour from DC. Median income in my county is $90,000, and you can buy a family house in a good school district for $300,000. We might feel differently about politics if our incomes were no higher and houses cost $1.3 million and our schools were among the worst in the country. But that’s California’s self-inflicted problem.
ptx 6y ago
Like the Hunger Games. For most people it works great, as long as your name isn't drawn.

ido 6y ago

Total income-related taxes+health insurance in California are IIRC similar or higher than Germany. Also in either case the taxes on $100k/year are way less than 50%. EDIT from what I can tell from very quick googling total taxes on $100k in California would be ~29% (not including health insurance) where as in Germany they would be ~34% (on $100k = ~€92k, including health insurance). So I guess whatever's better in that example depends on if you think German health insurance is worth 5% of your income. Your $500/m amount to 6% of income so similar to Germany either way. Keep in mind this is for single & childless, and Germany has outrageously generous tax breaks for having children as well as being married when one spouse earns a lot less than the other.

BeatLeJuce 6y ago
After taxes, health care and Solidaritätszuschlag, your taxrate for 100k ist closer to 42% in Germany
- ido 6y ago
  Not sure what you put in to get that number (keep in mind that $100k is roughly €92k) but there are many possible variables that can change your tax rate. In my personal case it is significantly lower than the number I posted above. I used mostly default values in the first online calculators I found for both California & Germany in the example in my original post.
  - querez 6y ago
    Just from personal experience: 42% is pretty much on the dot. It might be that with 92k you're still taxed in a lower class (or maybe you're married and thus getting a discount).
    - ido 6y ago
      Yes, I chose the wrong tax class by mistake. My personal tax rate is even lower than that as we have 2 kids & my wife and I file together (both self employed so we add up our incomes and file with all tax bracket at double the threshold). I think we ended up paying just over 15% off the top of my head but don't quote me on that (I earn less than €92k but still enough to have a very comfortable life). I knew you pay more as a single/childless person but I didn't realize just how much more - which makes it all the more surprising that Germans have such a low rate of both marriage and reproduction.
ido 6y ago
My number for Germany comes from https://www.brutto-netto-rechner.info/gehalt/gross_net_calculator_germany.php https://www.brutto-netto-rechner.info/gehalt/gross_net_calcu... & includes Solidaritätszuschlag & health insurance. But it depends on state and stuff like church taxes (optional, you can declare being atheist & pay none) plus other things like marital status, tax classes, which public health insurance you choose, etc. And the end of the day you pay similar taxes on income in Germany as you do in a high-tax US states like California.
rayiner 6y ago
I get different numbers from here: http://www.parmentier.de/steuer/steuer.htm?wagetax.htm http://www.parmentier.de/steuer/steuer.htm?wagetax.htm On 92,000 Euro I get 45% total. In California it’s 30%. Moreover, if you’re making $100,000, you’re almost certainly getting health insurance as part of the salary in California, so you don’t need to add the cost of health insurance on top of that.
- ido 6y ago
  Ah, I think I see the difference - for singles (class I) it gives you 43%, I mistakenly chose the married category (class III, in my mind that was the "default" tax class - probably cause that's how I have always filed in Germany), in which case the rate is 33%.

tghw 6y ago

And what if you make the US median individual income of $31k?

endtime 6y ago
About 15.75% according to https://neuvoo.com/tax-calculator/?iam=&uet_calculate=calculate&salary=31000&from=year&region=Ohio https://neuvoo.com/tax-calculator/?iam=&uet_calculate=calcul...
SECProto 6y ago
If you make 31k, you likely don't have the good health insurance of the OP, and your final bill would be hundreds of thousands (i.e. it couldn't be afforded)
- war1025 6y ago
  In reality you would end up on Medicaid. There would be limits to what hospitals you could go to for treatment, but you wouldn't be stuck with the bill in the end. Basically the way the American healthcare system works, they will eventually pick up the tab. They just go out of their way to bleed you dry on the way.
- rayiner 6y ago
  If you make $31,000 as a non-elderly single person, you’re at 250% of the FPL and there is an 89% chance you’re insured: https://www.cbpp.org/uninsured-rates-are-higher-at-lower-income-levels https://www.cbpp.org/uninsured-rates-are-higher-at-lower-inc.... Under Obamacare, there really isn’t any health insurance plans that will leave you with hundreds of thousands in costs without coverage (leaving aside surprise out-of-network doctors and that’s a loophole people on both sides of the aisle are trying to fix).

ivanvanderbyl 6y ago

We get comparable treatment as Germany in Australia and pay comparable tax to America. I don't buy that this is a luxury of high tax paying countries. Something is systemically wrong in the US.

3fe9a03ccd14ca5 6y ago
Yes. The problem is we simply pay much more for treatment and medicine in the US because it cost more. It’s actually an issue where I can see the landscape changing rapidly, and fully expect major changes in the next 5 or so years.

vertex-four 6y ago

Germany's average tax rate (according to the OECD) for a one-earner married couple with two children is 34.3%, while the same in the US is 18.8%. Taking these, the difference for your $100k/year example would be about 15k. You'd have about 80k in the US, and about 65k in Berlin. Now to compare cost of living - let's say you wanted to compare Berlin vs SF, for similarly ridiculous housing markets. A quick search[0] suggests that living in Berlin costs nearly half as much - Berlin's $65k is more like a San Francisco $130k. Now the downside is that you're not actually going to get paid as much in Berlin - maybe $68k as a senior software developer, as opposed to $135k-ish in SF. Plugging these numbers into a couple of actual quick tax calculators rather than using the averages, the Berliner makes about $41k, while the worker in San Francisco makes about $87k - although these are both without going through an accountant to massage the numbers. After our magic divider, that's a difference of about $2.5k. Perhaps the US allows an accountant to massage the numbers more than Germany, but honestly, as someone currently in Germany, that doesn't pass the smell test. So all in all, you wind up with $2.5k a year over the Berliner with which to cover everything that Germany's system does. And this is one of the best case scenarios - a high-salary tech worker with good benefits. For everyone else in the US, their quality of life and access to effective healthcare is likely to be significantly lower. [0] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Germany&city1=Berlin&country2=United+States&city2=San+Francisco%2C+CA https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...

rayiner 6y ago
A high-tech worker living in SF is actually not “one of the best case scenarios.” As your calculations show, the insane cost of living blows out the somewhat higher income. In terms of actual prosperity, run the numbers for places like Iowa. Salaries are 1/2 as much in Des Moines than San Francisco, but a house costs about 1/8th as much. And 95% of people have health insurance. There is a reason people are actually flooding out of California and New York. I wonder if the insane costs and dysfunction of coastal cities is one of the driving factors of the differences in politics between those places and the rest of the country. I live in a Trump precinct in a historically red but recently purple county about an hour from DC. Median income in my county is $90,000, and you can buy a family house in a good school district for $300,000. We might feel differently about politics if our incomes were no higher and houses cost $1.3 million and our schools were among the worst in the country. But that’s California’s self-inflicted problem.

ptx 6y ago

Like the Hunger Games. For most people it works great, as long as your name isn't drawn.