6 ms·

Blind people ‘read’ letters that are traced on their brains with electricity

129 points by EndXA 6y ago

wdb 6y ago
Thank you for posting! Always fascinates me that we still find out how to brain works. Always get the feeling there is still so much left to discover about the human body :)
annoyingnoob 6y ago
Watch out for the overflow, Johnny Mnemonic.
- dillonmckay 6y ago
  All the best hackers are dolphins?
ta1234567890 6y ago
Reminded me of this NPR story (https://www.npr.org/programs/invisibilia/378577902/how-to-become-batman https://www.npr.org/programs/invisibilia/378577902/how-to-be...) in which they show that a blind person can technically see through hearing (echolocation), and then poise the (philosophical) question, what is seeing? Pretty fascinating.
- tines 6y ago
  I think seeing is pretty easy to define, it's the decoding of high-density two-dimensional information encoded in a wave. High-density differentiates it from feeling/smelling, and two-dimensional differentiates it from hearing/smelling. Is that definition missing anything relevant?
  - ta1234567890 6y ago
    > Is that definition missing anything relevant? Yes, wide-acceptance. Google the definition of seeing, does it resemble what you wrote? Ask a lot of people what seeing is, would they give the same definition as yours? Historically, seeing has been mostly regarded as what we are capable of doing with our eyes. Also, in your definition, what is doing the decoding? Is the retina decoding, is the optic nerve decoding, are each individual cell decoding, are the individual neurons decoding? And what does it mean to decode? Definitions require agreement, not just a seemingly factual description. At least if you want the definition to be accepted. Which is in the end what defines a definition.
garmaine 6y ago
So do sighted people...
mifreewil 6y ago
Hook up some cameras to Neuralink[1] via the developer API (tongue in cheek) and boom, sight! [1] https://www.neuralink.com/ https://www.neuralink.com/
- 101404 6y ago
  Neutralink will be one of the most exciting things in the decades to come. Plans are to install the first chips with over 1000 connectors within a year.
  - slfnflctd 6y ago
    For those who haven't read it, the 'Wait But Why' extensive blogpost on Neuralink (warning, it's super long, I think it has enough of a wordcount to qualify as a novel if it was one) is probably the most fascinating thing I've read in the last 5 years: https://waitbutwhy.com/2017/04/neuralink.html https://waitbutwhy.com/2017/04/neuralink.html A lot of it is speculation by necessity, and I'm sure some is outdated now, but it's also packed with facts and the reasoning seems sound. If anyone knows whether any of it has been debunked, I would be interested in that as well.
unexaminedlife 6y ago
This ted talk still has my mind blown. Not sure what the current state of the art is on this, but I find this amazing even today. https://www.ted.com/talks/sheila_nirenberg_a_prosthetic_eye_to_treat_blindness https://www.ted.com/talks/sheila_nirenberg_a_prosthetic_eye_...
- tomc1985 6y ago
  Years ago I read about something like this. A blind man was even able to drive a car (I think it was the researcher's) around a parking lot. IIRC it had a limited framerate so he wouldn't be able to actually drive anywhere with it I find the encoding of such a signal to be fascinating. Somewhere someone has mapped out the 'protocol' of the eye-brain interface! I would love to know more.
  - slfnflctd 6y ago
    > Somewhere someone has mapped out the 'protocol' of the eye-brain interface! I think it's more accurate to say they've tinkered their way into figuring out a few basic commands that can make the system predictably do a handful of things. Still no color, very limited resolution, and low framerate as you mentioned. We've probably got over 99% more of that 'protocol' yet to discover. But at least we've got our foot in the door.
KuriousCat 6y ago
I hope to see a non invasive way to do this soon, either via nano-bots or some form of magnetic stimulation. Years ago, our hard-disks got smaller, it is time for MRI and transcranial stimulation.
anang 6y ago
I am totally convinced that we will essentially invent telepathy within the next few decades. We’ve already made strides with interacting with a computer via brain signals, if we can build simple text interfaces (like this) that interface directly with the brain we have all the pieces needed to silently send text messages using only thought.
- SirHound 6y ago
  I totally agree, I think we're going to have a multi-decade period of technological improvement in this area from the first useful implementation to full sensory immersion.
- WilTimSon 6y ago
  My mind immediately goes to horrible implications like telepathic spam. Conversations getting interrupted with ads, screaming directly into your brain.
  - peterlk 6y ago
    > Leela: Didn't you have ads in the 20th century? > > Fry: Well, sure, but not in our dreams. Only on TV and radio. And in magazines and movies and at ball games, on buses and milk cartons and T-shirts and bananas and written on the sky. But not in dreams. No, sir-ee!
- jstanley 6y ago
  If plugged into the internet, this easily leads to the next breakthrough technology: surveillance of thoughts.
- m463 6y ago
  You should listen to the latest Joe Rogan interview with Elon Musk. https://youtu.be/RcYjXbSJBN8 https://youtu.be/RcYjXbSJBN8 They talk about that ... basically people being able to communicate without "mouth sounds" and other interesting topics.
  - vsareto 6y ago
seemslegit 6y ago
That's a pretty high claim, shouldn't it be possible to demonstrate this effect on blindfolded sighted people ?
aaron695 6y ago
The actual journal article (linked in the article) has more info, it actually seems they did something interesting. The calibration was a cool - https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cell.2020.04.033 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cell.2020.04.033
djohnston 6y ago
things like this and BCIs are some of the most exciting tech products in existence, IMO
EndXA 6y ago
Original study: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867420304967 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S009286742... Abstract: > A visual cortical prosthesis (VCP) has long been proposed as a strategy for restoring useful vision to the blind, under the assumption that visual percepts of small spots of light produced with electrical stimulation of visual cortex (phosphenes) will combine into coherent percepts of visual forms, like pixels on a video screen. We tested an alternative strategy in which shapes were traced on the surface of visual cortex by stimulating electrodes in dynamic sequence. In both sighted and blind participants, dynamic stimulation enabled accurate recognition of letter shapes predicted by the brain’s spatial map of the visual world. Forms were presented and recognized rapidly by blind participants, up to 86 forms per minute. These findings demonstrate that a brain prosthetic can produce coherent percepts of visual forms.

129 points by EndXA 6y ago

wdb 6y ago

Thank you for posting! Always fascinates me that we still find out how to brain works. Always get the feeling there is still so much left to discover about the human body :)

annoyingnoob 6y ago

Watch out for the overflow, Johnny Mnemonic.

dillonmckay 6y ago
All the best hackers are dolphins?

ta1234567890 6y ago

Reminded me of this NPR story (https://www.npr.org/programs/invisibilia/378577902/how-to-become-batman https://www.npr.org/programs/invisibilia/378577902/how-to-be...) in which they show that a blind person can technically see through hearing (echolocation), and then poise the (philosophical) question, what is seeing? Pretty fascinating.

tines 6y ago
I think seeing is pretty easy to define, it's the decoding of high-density two-dimensional information encoded in a wave. High-density differentiates it from feeling/smelling, and two-dimensional differentiates it from hearing/smelling. Is that definition missing anything relevant?
- ta1234567890 6y ago
  > Is that definition missing anything relevant? Yes, wide-acceptance. Google the definition of seeing, does it resemble what you wrote? Ask a lot of people what seeing is, would they give the same definition as yours? Historically, seeing has been mostly regarded as what we are capable of doing with our eyes. Also, in your definition, what is doing the decoding? Is the retina decoding, is the optic nerve decoding, are each individual cell decoding, are the individual neurons decoding? And what does it mean to decode? Definitions require agreement, not just a seemingly factual description. At least if you want the definition to be accepted. Which is in the end what defines a definition.

garmaine 6y ago

So do sighted people...

mifreewil 6y ago

Hook up some cameras to Neuralink[1] via the developer API (tongue in cheek) and boom, sight! [1] https://www.neuralink.com/ https://www.neuralink.com/

101404 6y ago
Neutralink will be one of the most exciting things in the decades to come. Plans are to install the first chips with over 1000 connectors within a year.
- slfnflctd 6y ago
  For those who haven't read it, the 'Wait But Why' extensive blogpost on Neuralink (warning, it's super long, I think it has enough of a wordcount to qualify as a novel if it was one) is probably the most fascinating thing I've read in the last 5 years: https://waitbutwhy.com/2017/04/neuralink.html https://waitbutwhy.com/2017/04/neuralink.html A lot of it is speculation by necessity, and I'm sure some is outdated now, but it's also packed with facts and the reasoning seems sound. If anyone knows whether any of it has been debunked, I would be interested in that as well.

unexaminedlife 6y ago

This ted talk still has my mind blown. Not sure what the current state of the art is on this, but I find this amazing even today. https://www.ted.com/talks/sheila_nirenberg_a_prosthetic_eye_to_treat_blindness https://www.ted.com/talks/sheila_nirenberg_a_prosthetic_eye_...

tomc1985 6y ago
Years ago I read about something like this. A blind man was even able to drive a car (I think it was the researcher's) around a parking lot. IIRC it had a limited framerate so he wouldn't be able to actually drive anywhere with it I find the encoding of such a signal to be fascinating. Somewhere someone has mapped out the 'protocol' of the eye-brain interface! I would love to know more.
- slfnflctd 6y ago
  > Somewhere someone has mapped out the 'protocol' of the eye-brain interface! I think it's more accurate to say they've tinkered their way into figuring out a few basic commands that can make the system predictably do a handful of things. Still no color, very limited resolution, and low framerate as you mentioned. We've probably got over 99% more of that 'protocol' yet to discover. But at least we've got our foot in the door.

KuriousCat 6y ago

I hope to see a non invasive way to do this soon, either via nano-bots or some form of magnetic stimulation. Years ago, our hard-disks got smaller, it is time for MRI and transcranial stimulation.

anang 6y ago

I am totally convinced that we will essentially invent telepathy within the next few decades. We’ve already made strides with interacting with a computer via brain signals, if we can build simple text interfaces (like this) that interface directly with the brain we have all the pieces needed to silently send text messages using only thought.

SirHound 6y ago
I totally agree, I think we're going to have a multi-decade period of technological improvement in this area from the first useful implementation to full sensory immersion.
WilTimSon 6y ago
My mind immediately goes to horrible implications like telepathic spam. Conversations getting interrupted with ads, screaming directly into your brain.
- peterlk 6y ago
  > Leela: Didn't you have ads in the 20th century? > > Fry: Well, sure, but not in our dreams. Only on TV and radio. And in magazines and movies and at ball games, on buses and milk cartons and T-shirts and bananas and written on the sky. But not in dreams. No, sir-ee!
jstanley 6y ago
If plugged into the internet, this easily leads to the next breakthrough technology: surveillance of thoughts.
m463 6y ago
You should listen to the latest Joe Rogan interview with Elon Musk. https://youtu.be/RcYjXbSJBN8 https://youtu.be/RcYjXbSJBN8 They talk about that ... basically people being able to communicate without "mouth sounds" and other interesting topics.
- vsareto 6y ago

seemslegit 6y ago

That's a pretty high claim, shouldn't it be possible to demonstrate this effect on blindfolded sighted people ?

aaron695 6y ago

The actual journal article (linked in the article) has more info, it actually seems they did something interesting. The calibration was a cool - https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cell.2020.04.033 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cell.2020.04.033

djohnston 6y ago

things like this and BCIs are some of the most exciting tech products in existence, IMO

EndXA 6y ago

Original study: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867420304967 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S009286742... Abstract: > A visual cortical prosthesis (VCP) has long been proposed as a strategy for restoring useful vision to the blind, under the assumption that visual percepts of small spots of light produced with electrical stimulation of visual cortex (phosphenes) will combine into coherent percepts of visual forms, like pixels on a video screen. We tested an alternative strategy in which shapes were traced on the surface of visual cortex by stimulating electrodes in dynamic sequence. In both sighted and blind participants, dynamic stimulation enabled accurate recognition of letter shapes predicted by the brain’s spatial map of the visual world. Forms were presented and recognized rapidly by blind participants, up to 86 forms per minute. These findings demonstrate that a brain prosthetic can produce coherent percepts of visual forms.